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dropping of oil - Printable Version

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dropping of oil - ancient - 30-08-2008

in future all classic bikes should be fitted with an oil containing belly pan,isnt this compulsory in most form of racing?.i believe a classic bike wouldnt be allowed out at daytona without one.i may be wrong ,but after the jefferies accident this should be mandatory,i am not up to date on this ,lets hear from those who are..was this bray hill incident picked up by the marshals so avoiding what could have been a disaster..if so well done..


RE: dropping of oil - Carole - 30-08-2008

I think the oil was dropped by a 2006 GSXR 750, not a Classic?
The senior is for more modern bikes, so I would have thought that it should have had a catch tank fitted ?


RE: dropping of oil - ancient - 30-08-2008

sorry but i think youre right carol.perhaps it wasnt big enough.toughen up scrutineering i say.it just musnt happen...


RE: dropping of oil - Tomcat - 30-08-2008

Neither DJ's accident nor Chris Bradshaw's unfortunate blowup at the start of the Senior MGP were on classic bikes. I fail to see your point.

I think you'll find the ACU have considered the size of the catch tray which is as large as practically possible. The problem is, if an engine blows at speed oil will blow everywhere, catch tray or no catch tray.

However saying that, as a classic rider myself I wouldn't be opposed to requiring clasasics to have catch trays as well.


RE: dropping of oil - ancient - 30-08-2008

well aware that djs bike was not a classic.as a rider (ex) of classics for about 40 years(only they were not classics when i rode them they were the latest thing!) i have seen enough to know what happens when you come upon oil...lets lesson the chance yes ?,,,,i remember having a rod come through in the middle of bray, but the oil stayed in what was left of the engine...


RE: dropping of oil - Gstarron - 30-08-2008

In all US Road Race Classic Events run by AHRMA, oil containment is required, and yes that includes Daytona. I run a "dam" in the back part of my fairing, but I also have "diapers" which are special oil absorbment mats that hold about a quart of oil each. And yes my bike had them here, even though they were not required. So, you really need the diapers to absorb the oil and also keep the oil from sloshing. I have no idea how good they work, but I promise that when my bike gets back home, I will dump two quarts of oil in there and find out..! (the faring will be off the bike, I will dump in the oil and see if I can make any slosh out... and if so how much.) This would not be a 100% scientiffic result, but if most of the oil stays inside, then for my bike I would feel good about what I had done. (Also see http://www.ahrma.org for their on line rule book and info for those interested). Also note that for the last two years, I had made my bike available to two different racers (one English one Irish), and will put another chap (or one of the same) on it for next year. I now have a waiting list of guys.... so please do not ask for this next year....sorry....


RE: dropping of oil - ian huntly - 31-08-2008

....so we need to contact "Huggies" for sponsorship then ???


RE: dropping of oil - cargo - 01-09-2008

The oil spill on Saturday was due to an oil filter seal failure (at least that was the last I heard)

By a happy coincidence I meet with a marshal that was involved with the DJ incident and while I have no desire to get involved in a dissucssion on that subject. I'm assured that oil was NOT involved


RE: dropping of oil - ancient - 01-09-2008

cargo this i do not understand.as a marshall at the scene told the inquest that there was oil on the road,as did two riders.


RE: dropping of oil - Mr B - 04-09-2008

ancient Wrote:in future all classic bikes should be fitted with an oil containing belly pan,isnt this compulsory in most form of racing?.i believe a classic bike wouldnt be allowed out at daytona without one.i may be wrong ,but after the jefferies accident this should be mandatory,i am not up to date on this ,lets hear from those who are..was this bray hill incident picked up by the marshals so avoiding what could have been a disaster..if so well done..

This is particularly relevant as John Goodall's crash was caused by oil on the racing line, dropped by a a fellow competitor in the Senior Classic. I agree, this cannot be allowed to happen, it costs lives and is avoidable.


RE: dropping of oil - Tomcat - 04-09-2008

ancient Wrote:cargo this i do not understand.as a marshall at the scene told the inquest that there was oil on the road,as did two riders.

I think you're getting confused between 2 issues.

There was a large amount of oil shed at the start of the Senior race on Saturday, by a modern bike with oil catch tray, causing the race to be stopped and the first 20-odd riders to be brought back in while they cleared the track.

5 days earlier there were reports of oil dropped during the Senior Classic race on the section where John crashed. I don't know if that has been established as the cause of the crash and I don't plan to speculate on it.


RE: dropping of oil - ancient - 04-09-2008

old but not confused.oil diesel,has no place on tracks, roads anywhere.anything that prevents this should be brought in now.whatever it takes.if the present fixtures dont do the job improve them..


RE: dropping of oil - The Bag - 04-09-2008

I think that it should be looked into in greater depth as to how oil can be reasonably contained in the event of an engine blow as when you fall off on oil it makes no damn difference wether it came from a classic bike or a modern bike does it?
I'd not heard of these absorbant pads but they do seem like a good idea that is simple to fit on a faired bike, the biggest issue is how to contain oil on a classic machine with no or little fairing without distracting too much from its original appearance.
Russ


RE: dropping of oil - ancient - 04-09-2008

sod the appearance safety is paramount.yes?


RE: dropping of oil - Tomcat - 05-09-2008

I think we need to be a little bit cautious when calling for new rules. As much as JG's crash was a terrible tragedy (as is any death) that MAY have been caused by oil, there have been crashes (and any crash on the IoM is a potential fatal as I'm sure you'll agree) not linked to oil - would you introduce new rules for every single one of them?

In 2005 we had a very bad year for deaths on the Island. "Something Must Be Done" said the powers that be, and we got the TT Course Licence, despite the fact that arguably only one of the crashes was linked to rider ability (and that could have been picked up by the vetting process for MGP applications). However the organisers still accept applications for the TT from riders who have never ridden the TT course before, the amount of practice has been cut back, there are still large sections of the course with no crash protection, and so on. Maybe the difference is addressing these would cost money instead of making it.

The point is, kneejerk legislation is all too often a bad thing, achieving little or nothing but inconveniencing many. I'm not against all bikes having oil catch trays but where do you stop? Banning 2-strokes which carry a large amount of fuel/oil mix in tanks that can split? Forcing bikes to have wadding all round the engine (because catch trays, especially at speed, don't catch much oil)? Making riders wear full body armour and neck braces? Putting a chicane in front of every fast corner?

Be careful what you ask for, because you might get it.


RE: dropping of oil - Gstarron - 08-09-2008

Hi all... me again.. here is some info on the pads... from :

http://www.mcmaster.com/

Absorb water, acids, bases, chemicals, and coolants in addition to oils and other petroleum-based products. Standard sorbents have a dimpled cover, except sock which is smooth. Color is gray. Heavy duty sorbents are white.

Absorption Each
Capacity, Partial Full
Size gal. pkg. Qty. Pkg. Pkg.
Heavy Duty
Pad 18" Wd. x 18" Lg. 25 100 7291T812 $1.24 $0.89

OK, I hated to list any company, but this place has the most choices I could find. I am sure you can find the same or similar products over there... As you can see the pads are very inexpensive.

As to how this all looks, well the obvious answer is it depends on the bike. On a bike with a full fairing with an integral belly pan, then it is easy, build up a dam at the back and toss a couple of pads in... not visible at all. Then on open bikes it is more of a challenge.. but it is mandatory over here in the states, we just got over it.... Some guys use a baking pan and safety wire it to the bottom of the engine... not the prettiest, but then it works... On a dry sump bike, some guys just use some chicken wire with a couple of pads and zip tie or safety wire them to the bottom of the frame, almost invisible... well almost...

The other issue is the type of engine design, wet sump or dry sump... the dry sumps have an advantage in that they do not dump all the oil in a short period of time. The wet sumps have a slightly bigger potential to dump oil in larger quantities in a short(er) period of time.

Yes, some guys will complain, I guarantee that... but it is a safety issue. As per asking for more rules... well... I have only been to the IOM 5 times now, and EVERY time I have been there, there has always been an oil spill somewhere or another... even IF it did not cause any crashes, it does make the Marshalls "do something" if only waving the appropriate flag... and the less of that the better...! (I won't go in to the environmental stuff...) but less spillage is better, no matter what. Is it perfect..? Not likely.. nothing is.. but other than it looks ugly, or it will take some work to do it, may have to modify something... well.. it just makes sense.. And if the word gets out pretty soon, the more time everyone has to make the change.

I hope this helps...

Cheers..!

Ron


RE: dropping of oil - Gstarron - 08-09-2008

Me one more time... sorry.. but I tried to space the pad info out so it was in columns, and I failed.

The one pad I listed is 18" by 18" (a square) If you had 100 of them they can hold 25 gallons of oil. I guess that means each pad can hold one quart. If you bought 100 of them you would pay $89.00 USD, or they are $1.24 each in lessor quantities... sorry about that... I would guess you can buy them there, as the shipping from the states would likely cost a lot more than the pads..!

Ron


RE: dropping of oil - ancient - 08-09-2008

thank you ron for a intelligent and constructive response to the oil problem.i was going to give up on the site after some of the response.my concerns will become evident in the coming weeks..Most never see the aftermath of an accident due to oil or otherwise.If we can prevent just one it will be worthwhile..........


RE: dropping of oil - Tomcat - 08-09-2008

If by "some of the response" you mean my contribution to the debate I would just say, there are 2 sides to every coin and I make no apologies for pointing out the other one.

While these pads will no doubt absorb oil that drips onto them perhaps Ron (who unlike others here has seen them) could say what effect they have in the event of a high-speed engine blowup? My own experience with that, and with oil pipes becoming dislodged, is that the windflow blows the oil backwards. It doesn't just drop conveniently into the bellypan. I forget the actual race but one of the Superbikes events a few weeks ago showed the effect of a blowup - a big oil cloud behind the bike and riders in the scenery.

As I've said before, I'm not opposed to catch trays on principle but I think some people in this debate are putting too much faith in them and their ability to stop oil spills.


RE: dropping of oil - Will Loder - 09-09-2008

I'm not opposed to catch trays however I do question there relevance on bikes with dry sumps (a large number of the classic bikes), if there is an oil leak and the engine continues to run fine then most likley the oil is coming out as a fine mist at high pressure, something a catch tray will do little of nothing about.......... If there is a hole of a sufficient size to allow oil to run out then there isn't much in the engine to run out anyway and the rider would realise quickly that there is a SERIOUS problem.

As far as I am aware the oil containment rule was bought in the stop a wet sump bike (some of the classics) dumping several litres of oil onto the track following a "rod through the cases" type failure, as several litres suddenly dumped would be very difficult to clean up from the track. This oil containment system has done virtually nothing to stop oil getting on the track during general engine failures as demonstrated at virtually every BSB round wen at some point sessions are red flagged to clean up oil.

If it is concluded that a catch tray makes things safer then I will happily fit one, but the issue should be properly thought out and not just decided by a knee jerk reaction. For example removing the (new in 2005) double solid white lines that were a major contributing factor to my dad's crash on the mountain would have improved safety far more than the TT - course license imho........