Qualifying times
an old man returns Offline
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#1
Qualifying times
2011 MGP regulations page 13

Qualification times

Newcomers A & B Senior, Junior, Supertwin, Lightweight 115% of the time set by the third fastest qualifier

Classic races including Classic superbike/Junior Post Classic 120% of the time set by the third fastest qualifier

hummmmmmmmmmmm
I was there many times a few years ago, returned in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. SUPPORT THE MGP
(This post was last modified: 15-03-2011, 02:25 PM by an old man returns.)
15-03-2011, 02:04 PM
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Carole Offline
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#2
RE: Qualifying times
With the times set this year, and subsequent problems during races, something needed to change. This may not be popular with everyone, but if it prevents just one accident like Olies, it is a good move.

I know not everyone will agree with me, but hope you can appreciate my reasoning.
Life's too short- live it to the max and enjoy yourselves
15-03-2011, 03:23 PM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#3
RE: Qualifying times
(15-03-2011, 03:23 PM)Carole Wrote: With the times set this year, and subsequent problems during races, something needed to change. This may not be popular with everyone, but if it prevents just one accident like Olies, it is a good move.

I know not everyone will agree with me, but hope you can appreciate my reasoning.

What happens if a lad you get a clear couple of nights and good times are posted, then it rains rest of the week, how do you get near those times. Or if the reverse happens and on Friday night somebody who was fourth, does a faster time and somebody at the bottom drops out. Is there some lee way to fit in with conditions?
15-03-2011, 04:51 PM
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David Taylor Offline
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#4
RE: Qualifying times
Based on last year's Junior qualifying times, the 3rd placed man got around at about 118mph/19min. That gives a qualification speed of about 103mph/22min. That would effectively disqualify 10 or 15 riders at the bottom of the field.
Bearing in mind the collision involving Oliver Linsdell occurred as a consequence of two classes of riders/machinery simultaneously sharing the circuit, it's probably fair to say the club have already addressed the issue by making the Newcomers Race a completely separate event.
The bad crash in last years Junior wouldn't be resolved by this measure as both riders involved were well inside this new criterion.
We need to be careful not to alienate or deter riders from entering. Worse still, we really need to avoid a situation where a rider around the margins of qualifying isn't encouraged to take risks in order to get on the grid.
David Taylor
17-03-2011, 01:13 PM
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Tomcat Offline
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#5
RE: Qualifying times
Seems rather a pointless move to me. The Manx as an amateur event is always likely to have a wider spread of ability than the TT. Effective rider seeding means that the chances of slow and fast riders being on the same piece of road during the race will be minimal. My personal experience is the seeding does work quite well (last year I hardly saw another rider during my races!) and this could be further enhanced if riders were started in order of their qualifying speeds (with the caveat wet/dry practice could influence the order).

I don't see any real advantage in this whereas it is quite probable that some riders who would have met the old speed-based criteria could fail to meet the new comparitive ones. It's an awful lot of money and time to come over and risk not riding. Just when I thought the riders were starting to be treated better as well...
24-03-2011, 02:25 PM
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irishago Offline
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#6
RE: Qualifying times
Ive watched this thread with interest and i can see many faults with this qualifying arrangement. As i hope to race in the post classic superbike race at MGP 2011. Let say messers Dunlop & Co put in exceptional practice times speeds in excess of 120+mph . Looking at last years qualifying times you could end up loosing half the field. Lets say your 3rd place man does 118mph
the last man to qualify will have to lap in and around 104mph not easy on a 25 year old superbike for some people.Id like to think id be able to make the cut off but their are a lot of things that can halt your progress on the TT course like yellow flags, Traffic and so on. I think they should be more progressive in their approach when it comes to qualifying times like previous mountain course experience and race results this should at least count for something. But i suppose we will just have to wait and see. all the best will see you all at MGP 2011 Ciao Irish Ago....
Having looked at last years qualifying times for the post classic superbike race
with the new qualifying times, you would have lost 5 of the 17 starters that is if my maths is right. 3rd place just shy of 113mph last 5 qualifyers 92mph lets hope their are more entry,s this year which i believe their will be cheers Irish Ago....
(This post was last modified: 28-03-2011, 08:47 AM by irishago.)
28-03-2011, 08:41 AM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#7
RE: Qualifying times
(28-03-2011, 08:41 AM)irishago Wrote: Ive watched this thread with interest and i can see many faults with this qualifying arrangement. As i hope to race in the post classic superbike race at MGP 2011. Let say messers Dunlop & Co put in exceptional practice times speeds in excess of 120+mph . Looking at last years qualifying times you could end up loosing half the field. Lets say your 3rd place man does 118mph
the last man to qualify will have to lap in and around 104mph not easy on a 25 year old superbike for some people.Id like to think id be able to make the cut off but their are a lot of things that can halt your progress on the TT course like yellow flags, Traffic and so on. I think they should be more progressive in their approach when it comes to qualifying times like previous mountain course experience and race results this should at least count for something. But i suppose we will just have to wait and see. all the best will see you all at MGP 2011 Ciao Irish Ago....
Having looked at last years qualifying times for the post classic superbike race
with the new qualifying times, you would have lost 5 of the 17 starters that is if my maths is right. 3rd place just shy of 113mph last 5 qualifyers 92mph lets hope their are more entry,s this year which i believe their will be cheers Irish Ago....

The other problem is that you wont know you are definately in until Sat eve if you are near the bottom. So if you are racing Monday in the classic races it will be hard to know when to prepare your bikes for the race. Not everybody wants to run them right up to the last min.
28-03-2011, 10:40 AM
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smokey125 Offline
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#8
RE: Qualifying times
I see many problems with this. I can understand what they are trying to acheive but it has as many things against it as for it. Last year my 125 blew the rear unit in first practice I had only done 2 laps and was inside qualifing time so sent the unit off to be repaired. I ended up last on times and would have been in trouble under the new rules. So what do you do? Go out again on a bike that's not fit to be ridden in an attempt to improve your speed or risk not qualifing?
It is not going to do anything to improve the entries in the classic and post classic classes either. As has been pointed out last year 5 of 17 in the big post classic class would have gone out. Imagine what would happen in you had Ryan, Guy, Olie, MDunlop all go round at 117-120 in practice very possible. Seems like a good way to kill a class before it's got off the ground.

I'll finish it one day!
29-03-2011, 07:00 PM
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Jan Grainger Offline
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#9
RE: Qualifying times
(29-03-2011, 07:00 PM)smokey125 Wrote: Imagine what would happen in you had Ryan, Guy, Olie, MDunlop all go round at 117-120 in practice very possible. Seems like a good way to kill a class before it's got off the ground.
Good point. It doesn't seem fair to me that TT riders are permitted to take part in the Manx. Okay, it may be good for the spectators, etc, but gee, it must be tough on their fellow 'amateur' competitors.
30-03-2011, 10:48 PM
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Manxrider Offline
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#10
RE: Qualifying times
Not withstanding the Manx weather interupting practice. How is a Classic newcomer ever going to qualify?

Unless he is an extremely quick learner or a very quick rider then he is likely to risk all trying to qualify. How can that make it safer?

I don't think that there are many newcomers that can put in a 90+ lap in their first year.

With the Paton and MV up to 20mph faster along the Sulby Straight than the quickest Manx ridden by one of the top riders, then lesser mortals will struggle to qualify.

Fortunately last year's third place man Wattie, was slow enough to give others a chance.

But if it was like the year before then the grid of 40 starters would have been reduced to just 22 riders.
30-03-2011, 11:01 PM
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Tomcat Offline
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#11
RE: Qualifying times
Was speaking to Dick Linton about this recently. He was concerned less about the new qualifying system (as I guess he would be!) but more about the single rider start that is being introduced, the concern being that it could lead to a worsening of safety standards. A few moments work with a calculator shows why this would be.

90 riders setting off at 10s intervals means the last one would be heading off 15 minutes after the first. Lapping at just over the ton the leader would be coming round in about 22 minutes, and would then be passing the first of the tail-enders around Glen Helen. Likewise more of the faster riders would be catching more of the slower men than if they had been sent away in pairs. More passing equals more risk, as we have seen in the past.

No doubt this change was made with the best of intentions of curing perceived problems but you have to ask, will the cure be worse than the disease?
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2011, 01:58 PM by Tomcat.)
01-04-2011, 01:21 PM
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smokey125 Offline
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#12
RE: Qualifying times
(30-03-2011, 10:48 PM)Jan Grainger Wrote:
(29-03-2011, 07:00 PM)smokey125 Wrote: Imagine what would happen in you had Ryan, Guy, Olie, MDunlop all go round at 117-120 in practice very possible. Seems like a good way to kill a class before it's got off the ground.
Good point. It doesn't seem fair to me that TT riders are permitted to take part in the Manx. Okay, it may be good for the spectators, etc, but gee, it must be tough on their fellow 'amateur' competitors.

I've not got a problem racing against TT riders they have always been a part of the Classic races at the Manx. You would be surprised by the number of classic Manx riders who have raced the TT in the past. There are also a lot who still do, the evergreen Dave Madson-Mygdal is probably the best example.
In recent years there has been an increase of what I would descibe as hired hands, these are the riders who don't seem to have an interest in the bikes themselves but are rideing for extra track time on the mountain or because other people are encouraging them to do so. The problem is how do you define this or legislate this? In my opinion Olie doesn't fall into this group, the bikes he rides are owned by or at the very least prepared/developed by the family, he rides the bikes at other meetings and rides other classic bikes for people as well, but he is still a top level TT rider. It was much the same with Bob Heath when he was dominating the classic races.
I think we have to accept things are going to stay this way as I'm sure it's these riders that are helping to sell the event to potential sponsors without which the event wont survive. Mind you without the also rans to make up the field how long will it last?
I also think this is exagerated in the big post classic class as the cost of developing a multi 4 stroke is much much higher than a single and also a lot harder to do as a garden shed effort. This makes it a lot more expensive for a club rider to even get a bike close to being competitive.
(01-04-2011, 01:21 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Was speaking to Dick Linton about this recently. He was concerned less about the new qualifying system (as I guess he would be!) but more about the single rider start that is being introduced, the concern being that it could lead to a worsening of safety standards. A few moments work with a calculator shows why this would be.

90 riders setting off at 10s intervals means the last one would be heading off 15 minutes after the first. Lapping at just over the ton the leader would be coming round in about 22 minutes, and would then be passing the first of the tail-enders around Glen Helen. Likewise more of the faster riders would be catching more of the slower men than if they had been sent away in pairs. More passing equals more risk, as we have seen in the past.

No doubt this change was made with the best of intentions of curing perceived problems but you have to ask, will the cure be worse than the disease?

I completely agree with this point and have no doubt that this is one of the reasons for the new quailfing standard.
Looking at some of the previous posts and taking the idea that 10-15 would be lost off the bottom of the time sheets your only looking at 75-80 starters. A slight change to start numbers to remove any gaps at the back and not only have you got rid of the slowest riders who would get caught first but you have also increased the gap on the road between the first and last riders.

I'll finish it one day!
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2011, 11:06 AM by smokey125.)
02-04-2011, 10:59 AM
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an old man returns Offline
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#13
Qualifying times CHANGED 2 April 2011
http://www.manxgrandprix.org/News/News%2070.html

revised to 125% for classic and post classic

other revisions for newcomers etc
I was there many times a few years ago, returned in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. SUPPORT THE MGP
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2011, 09:43 AM by an old man returns.)
04-04-2011, 09:41 AM
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ace Offline
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#14
RE: Qualifying times
Does this really help!
04-04-2011, 10:03 AM
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Jan Grainger Offline
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#15
RE: Qualifying times
(30-03-2011, 10:48 PM)Jan Grainger Wrote:
(29-03-2011, 07:00 PM)smokey125 Wrote: Imagine what would happen in you had Ryan, Guy, Olie, MDunlop all go round at 117-120 in practice very possible. Seems like a good way to kill a class before it's got off the ground.
Good point. It doesn't seem fair to me that TT riders are permitted to take part in the Manx. Okay, it may be good for the spectators, etc, but gee, it must be tough on their fellow 'amateur' competitors.
I will clarify this comment to read "Current" TT competitors. I was not referring to those who had ridden the TT in previous years.
04-04-2011, 10:44 PM
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Tomcat Offline
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#16
RE: Qualifying times
(04-04-2011, 10:44 PM)Jan Grainger Wrote: I will clarify this comment to read "Current" TT competitors. I was not referring to those who had ridden the TT in previous years.

100% agree Jan, though I know the view isn't universally shared. In years past the Manx was seen as a feeder to the TT so winners were excluded for future MGP's. In the same way if riders were good enough to ride the TT they had no business running round with the amateurs in the Manx. The one exception was the Classic classes as there was no TT to move up to, and allowing winners to come back was in the interest of a class that enjoyed a lot of continuity of riders.

Fast forward to today and it makes sense to allow former TT riders to return to the modern classes if they no longer wish to ride in the white heat of the TT, given a sensible break so it doesn't simply allow a load of pot-hunters to wreck the Manx in search of a bit of extra practice time. Unfortunately the pot hunters have instead moved into the Classic and Post Classic classes, discouraging a lot who have supported the event over many years out of their own pockets. Why should I use most of my year's holiday and several thousand of my own money to ride round knowing I'm up against current TT riders on machinery I couldn't afford in a decade saving up? No rep and with a bad practice week maybe no qualifying either.

Against this it could reasonably be said if you can't run with the leaders what business do you have being out there. That's fair up to a point and I wouldn't suggest people should be given medals for getting off the boat. But if you cater for the elite and ignore the also-rans that's all you will get, a race where only the few who can get a result will bother to enter. Think you can run a MGP race with 30 entries? Because it won't be long before that's where the Classic events are. Not because the class is fading - it's huge on the mainland, but then on the mainland you don't pay thousands for a couple of rides and you're not generally up against GP riders.

There have been some welcome moves in encouraging the "non elite" classic riders to stay/return, but some of the fundamental problems remain, as I have said. Perhaps it really is too late now and the oldies have decided if the Island doesn't want them they don't want it either, and discouraging the TT riders would only serve to deplete the classes further. I hope not, because at the moment I don't see much reversing the trend of a great class in steady decline.
(This post was last modified: 28-05-2011, 10:25 PM by Tomcat.)
28-05-2011, 10:22 PM
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rc30alfie Offline
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#17
RE: Qualifying times
smokey125 Wrote:


"I also think this is exagerated in the big post classic class as the cost of developing a multi 4 stroke is much much higher than a single and also a lot harder to do as a garden shed effort."

Perhaps you would like to tell us what G50, Manx, Aermacchi or Ducati single costs less to buy and develop to race in the Manx than a Suzuki GSXR750!!.
(This post was last modified: 12-06-2011, 11:20 AM by rc30alfie.)
12-06-2011, 11:19 AM
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David Linsdell Offline
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#18
RE: Qualifying times
(12-06-2011, 11:19 AM)rc30alfie Wrote: smokey125 Wrote:


"I also think this is exagerated in the big post classic class as the cost of developing a multi 4 stroke is much much higher than a single and also a lot harder to do as a garden shed effort."

Perhaps you would like to tell us what G50, Manx, Aermacchi or Ducati single costs less to buy and develop to race in the Manx than a Suzuki GSXR750!!.

A good point. The bike that Olie had his accident on whilst dicing with Michael Dunlop for the lead was THE exact bike that dad set his fastest ever lap of the TT on (117.4mph), and is exactly as it was parked up over 20 years ago. We got it out, cleaned it, stripped it down and rebuilt it. And this was a privateer bike, built by dad in the eighties, not a works special.

Also the GSXR's raced by Johnny Barton last year and by Jamie Coward winning at the Pre TT this year were both bought off ebay for around £750 I believe. If it's cheap racing you're looking for you can pick up race winning (CRMC) K4 hondas for £3500 grand, irritatingly compared to a minimum of £7000 ish for a race-worthy ducati or £15000 minimum for a 7R! If we could afford a decent 350 single we would buy one, but we can't! Dad doesn't do Honda's (likes his singles and has a long term Yamaha connection), so will have to stick to the senior classic.

I hope the entries are good this year, I know of a few who havn't entered, but also a few newcomers in the classic classes, so fingers crossed Smile

Anyone on here entered?

David
12-06-2011, 02:16 PM
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David Taylor Offline
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#19
RE: Qualifying times
Hi David,

I wouldn't quibble with your assessment of what a Post Classic machine can be picked up for (- I managed to lay my hands on a Yamaha FZ750 for a few hundred pounds) but I've been absolutely horrified by what it actually costs to get them into race trim.

Modern bikes are an absolute bargain in comparison. They're already designed with one eye on production racing and no manufacturer wants to be seen to be uncompetitive. Simply throwing an exhaust system, a Power Commander and a suspension makeover at a 600 will allow you to compete.

The cost of a ready made decent classic or post classic machine is eye-watering. XR69s cost somewhere around fifteen grand and that's way beyond what the average MGP competitor can afford. Most of the guys on the grid have sacrificed an awful lot just to get there in the first place so anything that drives costs further up can only be a deterrent.

The GS1000 I raced last year had to be effectively re-engineered in order to make it safe and reliable enough to survive the Mountain Course. Bracing the frame, completely replacing the suspension and redesigning the camchain tensioning system were just 3 of the many tasks that absolutely had to be done. By the time I'd finished putting it together, my wallet looked like it had been on a starvation diet!

I suspect that having your father's undoubted engineering skills to call on may have shielded you from some of the costs that the rest of us have to countenance... ;-)

Cheers,

David Taylor
David Taylor
12-06-2011, 07:47 PM
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rc30alfie Offline
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#20
RE: Qualifying times
(12-06-2011, 07:47 PM)David Taylor Wrote: Hi David,

I wouldn't quibble with your assessment of what a Post Classic machine can be picked up for (- I managed to lay my hands on a Yamaha FZ750 for a few hundred pounds) but I've been absolutely horrified by what it actually costs to get them into race trim.

Modern bikes are an absolute bargain in comparison. They're already designed with one eye on production racing and no manufacturer wants to be seen to be uncompetitive. Simply throwing an exhaust system, a Power Commander and a suspension makeover at a 600 will allow you to compete.

The cost of a ready made decent classic or post classic machine is eye-watering. XR69s cost somewhere around fifteen grand and that's way beyond what the average MGP competitor can afford. Most of the guys on the grid have sacrificed an awful lot just to get there in the first place so anything that drives costs further up can only be a deterrent.

The GS1000 I raced last year had to be effectively re-engineered in order to make it safe and reliable enough to survive the Mountain Course. Bracing the frame, completely replacing the suspension and redesigning the camchain tensioning system were just 3 of the many tasks that absolutely had to be done. By the time I'd finished putting it together, my wallet looked like it had been on a starvation diet!

I suspect that having your father's undoubted engineering skills to call on may have shielded you from some of the costs that the rest of us have to countenance... ;-)

Cheers,

David Taylor

Sorry but I don,t think welding in a few feet of tubing, changing some shocks and fitting a manual cam chain tensioner costs more than the parts you mention for a 600 . As for what the average MGP competitor can afford, is there a competitive bike in the Classic races thats worth less than £15000? How much does a G50 or Manx cost, probably three times as much as you could build one of Tridents XR69 replicas for. As for a Paton................!! Incidently I think the class is now called Classic Superbike not Post Classic!!!
(This post was last modified: 12-06-2011, 08:36 PM by rc30alfie.)
12-06-2011, 08:34 PM
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