MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
Kenny Offline
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#1
MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I read in this months Classic Racer that an entry has been accepted for the MV Augusta triple, rider to be identified.

Where will this end, Patons, MV's Bonk

The outcome (although not 100%) is an increased difficulty in winning that elusive rep. smilie

Maybe its time to split the results between multi cylinders and singles!!
19-06-2008, 08:20 AM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#2
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I've been saying this for ages. The rep time should be from the first amateur home. letting these multis in with professional riders in will kill the event from the bottom up.
19-06-2008, 08:22 AM
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cargo
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#3
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I'm not aware if this is true that such a machine has actualy been accepted....................however

This very topic was raised at a recent meeting with the MMCC and while there is no guarentees I feel that something may happen to ease potential problems. It was too late to do anything for this years event but the club are aware of the concerns.

Banning machines like this is NOT the answer the Patton sounded wonderful and was great for the public to see it on the TT course the same could be said of this MV if it gets in.

Perhaps this could also be the chance for a certain BMW to make a TT course comback.............lets keep it positive guys the Manx is a great event and lots of people are working hard to keep it that way.

The best thing that any current MGP competitor can do is actively get involved in encouraging newcomers to the event. I want my sons to be able to see the MGP and have a pint with me outside the Sulby Glen while watching...............maybe even I'll be there watching while they compete smilie
19-06-2008, 08:39 AM
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thewitch
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#4
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
The bike was at the Bob MacIntyre Memorial race meeting last weekend. Looks and sounds absolutely wonderful. Ideal to listen to at the Bungalow, perhaps?
They had some amazing machinery there doing demo laps, including David Hailwood with some beautiful restored machines.
19-06-2008, 09:48 AM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#5
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
Hi cargo don't get me wrong i love the manx and want it to continue, as long as there are aware that is good. I would help in any way i can to keep the manx going and in fact i raise money for the helicopter fund by my cycle ride
19-06-2008, 12:37 PM
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smokey125 Offline
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#6
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I believe it was being ridden by Phil Sharp at the Bob Mac he won’t be riding it at it Manx if it’s going.

This has cropped up many times and as of yet I have never heard anyone come up with any sort of sensible solution to this perceived problem.

How do you split the bikes? If you use twins/singles then the Weslake’s have to run with the Paton’s and Honda’s. You also have the Gilera that Pat Sefton (think that’s how you spell it) ran it’s never been that quick. If you use CRMC group 1 and 2 that is no better as it will only segregate the Honda’s and the Ducati’s would still be racing against the Honda’s.
As far as I know there will be at least 4 Paton’s at the Manx. I would be surprised if two of them trouble the top 10.
At the end of the day these bikes aren’t always quick, remember Dave Roper on the Benelli it was quick until he fell off, would he have troubled Bill Swallow and Bob Heath over the full race distance personally I don’t think so. Glen English on the 250 Benelli never made it to the race.
Lets not forget that it was only last year that Bob’s Senior lap record was broken after what 8-10 years?

As for separating the riders this is even harder to do. Who is an amateur? For what it’s worth I believe there is currently (from last years entry and this years provisional list from MGP web site) only 1 true professional rider. There are quite a few who don’t pay anything to race, but they are not being paid to race. So where do you draw the line and how do you enforce it?
I agree that a rider being paid to ride at an amateur event is wrong but how do you define being paid? If it’s receiving payment of any kind then that would rule out most of the field!
If you say you can’t do the TT and Manx in the same year then you take out most of the top of the field! Again if you take this back to the Bill and Bob days this would have taken 2 of the front runners out Bob Heath and Bob Jackson but would have still left Bill (for all but 1 year) but it would also have stopped Dennis Trollop riding at the Manx as he was racing a single at the TT as well.

In my opinion if you want to know what is killing of the classic classes it’s the mass of Honda’s. I know this may not be a very popular comment but if you look at the number of entries they have steadily decreased since the Honda’s were let back in. If the Honda’s are as cheap and plentiful as some suggest how come they aren’t filling the gaps? However what is done is done and we can only work with what we have.

I know you asked us to keep it positive cargo and this doesn’t sound it. All I am trying to say is that this is not new and it is almost impossible to something about it and still being fair to everyone.
This is not intended to be having a go at anyone just to highlight the fact that if you stand back and look at it objectively it is almost impossible to find a solution.


One last thing a few years back when Bill and Bob were running away with everything they changed the rep calculations to make it the average of the top three or possibly six to try and make it easier for the rest of the field. This was the first year I won a replica. At first I wasn’t sure I wanted to collect it as I felt I hadn’t won it properly as it was when we worked it out I would have won it anyway.
Obviously I can only speak for myself but if by the rules being changed to not allow certain rides because they are deemed to fast and due to this I managed to get another podium or even a win it would feel somewhat hollow. To be able to call yourself the best you have to beat the best.

I'll finish it one day!
19-06-2008, 12:58 PM
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Kenny Offline
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#7
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
cargo Wrote:The best thing that any current MGP competitor can do is actively get involved in encouraging newcomers to the event. I want my sons to be able to see the MGP and have a pint with me outside the Sulby Glen while watching...............maybe even I'll be there watching while they compete

Cargo, lets just say that in the class you ride in at the MGP they let in, for arguments sake and for power comparison, an ex tenkate with a top 5 TT rider on it, how do you then say to a prospective newcomer, yup not a probem you come over to the MGP, enjoy the experience and if all goes well a finishers medal because the TT rider will go around that fast you do not have a chance of a rep. but heyho the TT rider will be good to watch and listen to. I can almost feel the resignation and lack of interest. Your class (all classes) will soon be in the clutches of a minority, and could lead to the demise of the class. No-one wants to watch a race of a handful of bikes. (Would the organisers put the race on?)
Would the experience be there for you and your sons to enjoy? if nothing is done, I doubt it.
19-06-2008, 01:00 PM
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cargo
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#8
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I absolutely understand the problem and as I said the club are aware.
The problem lies in where or how to draw the line.

For the modern MGP classes it is done by the fact that TT riders are not allowed except now in the smaller classes and even then only after a period of exclusion...........BTW this rule change has not resulted in a flood of TT and exTT riders entering.
As for a Tenkate bike in the Manx..........bring it on... at least it won't be exlcuded for some stuipd camshaft measuring mistake

Many of the bikes oustide of these MV and Pattons that have been in the Manx for years are no more a classic bike than a 2008 Fireblade

Mr Warmsleys (forgive the spelling) are brand new built from scratch it could be argued that they should not be allowed.

How to define a classic bike is the subject of huge debate and agruement a look at the Classic racing webiste reveals more rules than a man could ever read or understand with lotsa of exceptions.

I believe that the MMCC have tried very hard to keep the rules both modern and classic races as simple to understand is is possible and I'm certain that will continue.
I'm also sure that given time maybe in time for 2009 some sort of compromise can be reached.

Take it from me when we next talk with the club this topic will be raised if not by one of the Classic riding ambassadors then..... I will.

In the meantime be positive the Manx is a great event and come hell or high water we should all be supporting the club in every way.
19-06-2008, 01:22 PM
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Kenny Offline
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#9
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
cargo Wrote:I absolutely understand the problem and as I said the club are aware.
The problem lies in where or how to draw the line.

As for a Tenkate bike in the Manx..........bring it on... at least it

I believe that the MMCC have tried very hard to keep the rules both modern and classic races as simple to understand is is possible and I'm certain that will continue.
I'm also sure that given time maybe in time for 2009 some sort of compromise can be reached.

Take it from me when we next talk with the club this topic will be raised if not by one of the Classic riding ambassadors then..... I will.

In the meantime be positive the Manx is a great event and come hell or high water we should all be supporting the club in every way.

Tenkate bike as an example.....tenkate bike with top 5 TT rider smilie

I completely agree with the rest though Cargo, I have supported the MGP for 12 years and will continue to do so. I do feel however that some serious foot shooting is going on and for the event to prosper and grow this firearm activity must stop.
19-06-2008, 01:50 PM
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thewitch
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#10
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
[Image: MVBobMac.jpg]
19-06-2008, 03:01 PM
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Kenny Offline
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#11
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
thewitch Wrote:[Image: MVBobMac.jpg]

Erm isnt the rear tyre on the wrong way round
19-06-2008, 03:53 PM
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Gstarron Offline
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#12
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I say... "bring it on..!!" There is no such thing as a "sure winner" especially on the TT Course. But then you all know that.... I love the variety of bikes, that is part of the lure of the TT Course, be it the TT Races or the MGP.... There are many difficult obstacles to overcome to be up front, and horsepower is not necessarily the key to success. The bike has to finish... a most difficult challenge that has me scared silly..! Plus those thirsty multi's will have to stop for more "go juice." Nothing is a given.

I think it is far better to be "inclusive" of as many types of bikes as possible, Vs exclusive and have the same bikes win every year....

I also hear the debate over a fresh built up bike Vs a truly old racer... again there are two sides to that one as well. If I had to find an old racer, first the cost would go way up, plus the chances of finding what I wanted gets reduced.... I am using an old engine at least.

Oh yes, my bike is now in a container and on the boat.... you chaps over "there" have another two months fettle time over me.... But, watch out for the GREEN MONSTER...!!!
20-06-2008, 03:31 PM
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Will Loder Offline
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#13
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
In my opinion the MV coming is definately a good thing, it adds to the variety, and its likely to be more of a true replica than a manx norton with 3 less fins on the barrel than they ever had in the period or a 250 suzuki in a chassis based on begger all (both of which I also have no problem with). I love the classic races and I thoroughly encourage innovation and devolopment of the bikes as long as it's in line with things that could be done in the period.

"Real" or "privateer" classic racers is such a ridiculous term to try to apply to the classic manx. Surely riders such as Alan Oversby and Bill Swallow would fall into this category, both of these guys are well capable of doing over 108mph laps so how would introducing this rule make it easier to get a rep????? it wouldn't!!!!!!!!! Nothing worth winning ever comes easily!!

The course is faster now than it was when Bob was winning and so are the bikes so imagine the lap record if he hadn't retired ....110mph?
20-06-2008, 11:44 PM
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sticky Offline
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#14
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I've probably pitched this before but why not completely overhaul the way replicas are awarded? Why not award them to say the first 30 finishers, that way any TT top guns on expensive exotica won't be moving reps out of reach - and it's useful to have these guys and machines in order to attract more speccies. I also think it would be safer, as you'd be racing against someone of similar ability, not Farkie on £50 grand's worth of Paton.
21-06-2008, 10:42 PM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#15
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
good idea sticky
22-06-2008, 04:57 PM
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Will Loder Offline
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#16
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
Why would you want to completely overhaul the way replicas are awarded???????????? Surely the reason you all want to win a replica is because they show that you have achieved something!?!?!?!?! If you are just going to have replicas for an arbitary number of people then why 30? sometimes only 30 people finish! Therefore it completely undermines what winning a replica is all about (I'd be pretty annoyed if I came 3rd,5th, 10th etc. and only got the same reward as the guy who came last!) A replica awarded under this new system would be meaningless!!

Besides, you don't need a £50,000 Paton to win a replica!!
23-06-2008, 12:12 AM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#17
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
I see where you are coming from. but while you don't need a paton to win a rep, one could stop you winning a rep?
23-06-2008, 09:04 AM
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sticky Offline
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#18
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
Just chucking an idea around Will - I'm not saying it HAS to be 30. It's desirable to have star riders on exotic machines to attract a bigger crowd but then that will take the replica winning time out of reach for many that might otherwise deserve it. There's a guy who posts on here sometimes who rode in the Classic Senior last year, finished well up in a good time but didn't get a rep because Farkie had been so quick on the Paton.

Maybe bring in Silver & Bronze reps. Silver to the first 25% of finishers, Bronze for the next 25%. I certainly wouldn't want to devalue a replica but I do believe there's a fairer way of doing it.

I also think it's safer (and I apply this to the TT aswell) as I wonder if sometimes riders chasing a replica time ride a little beyond themselves to try and achieve it?
23-06-2008, 09:51 AM
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smokey125 Offline
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#19
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
Thank you Will. That was exactly the point I was trying to make and I fully agree with you if you change the way replicas are awarded you devalue the replica itself.

I can see the point you’re trying to make sticky but how do you make it any fairer?
Take your example of the rider who missed out due to the quick men being so quick. Last year there were 36 finishers 14 of whom won replicas, that’s 40% of the finishers.
The extreme rate of attrition in the classics could easily mean that if you had a year when very few of the top runners retired over 50% of the field could be in replica time and your man could be out of the top 50% but have been inside the old replica time. Oppositely if a lot of the top runner retired your man would be in the top 50% could have been inside the old time, might also find that the last couple of replica winners could be as much as a minute a lap slower than him takes some of the shine off when someone that much slower who would never have won a replica before is standing there next to you with one!
I believe the only fair way of doing it is a percentage of the winner’s time as it reflects the speed and ability of both rider and machine compared to the winner i.e. the best overall package that day. Rather than just your ability to finish.

I would also have to totally disagree with the safety aspect. With anything like this be it TT riders having to do the MGP first people chasing replicas/qualifying times by changing the required standard you don’t remove the pressure or change the fact that there are people who will be on the borders of achieving what they are chasing you simply move it to a different part of the field.
I think you could make things worse. With the percentage as it is now there are a relatively limited number of riders who could be borderline on winning a replica. If it was a percentage of finishers and again in the classics due to the high attrition rate the number of riders who might get a replica if the retirees happened to come in the right places could be much higher. You could have a lot more people trying that bit too hard.
Ultimately the throttle goes both ways and the rider is the only one responsible for his decisions and actions.

You have to ask yourself why you’re doing it. If it’s because you want to race your bike against the best riders on the best bikes on the best course in the world then I don’t see where the problem is. If all you want is to win a replica then so long as you’re not too old I would suggest getting a 400. The speeds are not that much greater and if you’re borderline for replica pace in the classics you should be able to get one in the ultralightweight.

As Will and I have both already said the pace in the classics hasn’t gone up for nearly 10 years think how quick Bob Heath would have gone on one of these current bikes they are giving nearly 10 brake more than his, from the same engines.

Will if you’re over for the Manx I’ll see you then. Cheers Doug Snow

I'll finish it one day!
23-06-2008, 12:46 PM
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sticky Offline
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#20
RE: MV Augusta triple MGP 2008
In the light of that argument Doug I will concede that I'm probably wrong Smile
23-06-2008, 02:27 PM
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