So they should it was a disgrace
Ryan Farquhar Offline
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#41
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Cant wait for MGP 2010.Icon_lolBeer2
16-12-2009, 11:52 PM
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Stella Offline
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#42
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
(16-12-2009, 02:25 PM)Stella Wrote: I presume moderators check out the email address of anyone posting under a name that is known to the public b4 another thread descends into mud slinging ....


The actions that you have intimated should be undertaken, were undertaken immediately upon observing the subject posting.

Malcolm

Guess thats me told then .......Icon_lol
*Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic*
17-12-2009, 12:30 AM
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andyr Offline
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#43
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
(16-12-2009, 05:07 PM)Gstarron Wrote: It is winter time.. easy to get a little bit of "cabin fever.."

All I know, is that I look at ALL the IOM (TT Course) races as: man (or woman), and machine AGAINST the TT Course.

Andy, really enjoyed meeting you at the Creg.. (yes we had some gleeful banter..in good fun..) And your finish was AWESOME..! Heck, everyone's finish was awesome..!

I can't wait for MGP 2010..!!

Cheers..!! Happy Holidays... and get ready for next year..!!!


Ron - THe Crazy Yank - working the streets with tin cup in hand.... with a sign saying "coins needed to attend the MGP..."

Hi Ron and Ken,
Missing you already! We spent too much time in the Creg this year due to the cancellations etc. didn't we.
I enjoyed the banter too, that 's a good reason to be in the Island isn't it?
I've got quite a few replicas now but well remember the first one in 1995. I got onto my knees at the presentation, I had spent so much of my own money over the years (£40,000 +) just to get some sort of recognition or credablity. Ron, keep looking for that sponsorship don't ask for too much just keep at it, look where it got me - a ride on a Paton!
Ken, your passion is brilliant, don't let it get to you, we all have different reasons for going. I really love the TT course and will miss riding on it for the rest of my life but I will also treasure the replicas as they remind me of how much I put into it, as every rider does.
By the way I was extremely happy to receive my 'cap' on the podium for 3rd place, that was enough for me, just being up there. I never asked for a rep. Two very nice people (fellow riders) fought my case without my knowledge. I treasure that rep as a momento of having all my luck in one race. Weren't we lucky to be allowed to do it for all those years!!!
17-12-2009, 09:06 AM
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smokey125 Offline
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#44
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
(14-12-2009, 08:56 PM)Tomcat Wrote: I don't think we will ever reach agreement on this but maybe by airing our collective views some others may be tempted to rekindle their interest, or at least find a TT rider to lend their bikes to!

I couldn’t agree with this more Tomcat. Icon_cool

Whatever you do you won’t please all the people and at somepoint you have to turn opinions into a rule! When you do this grey area’s of people’s opinions disappear and are replaced with black and white, if you used the rules as it is for the Senior and Junior open classes it would also take some of the holiday races out, people like Keith Dixon and Grant Sellars.

This is why I believe any rule changes, need to be very carefully thought through before being made.

Unfortunately I think classic racing is in terminal decline and at this stage anything that reduces grid sizes will only be detrimental to all. In my opinion the time for change has long since passed.

(17-12-2009, 09:06 AM)andyr Wrote: By the way I was extremely happy to receive my 'cap' on the podium for 3rd place, that was enough for me, just being up there. I never asked for a rep. Two very nice people (fellow riders) fought my case without my knowledge. I treasure that rep as a momento of having all my luck in one race. Weren't we lucky to be allowed to do it for all those years!!!


It’s nice to “hear” you say that Andy. We all have our reasons and target/ambitions. I’ve got one left hope I get there.
Congrats on the podium finish, the caps are pretty special, good feeling to have one on. smilie

I'll finish it one day!
17-12-2009, 02:36 PM
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norstar Offline
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#45
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Have been watching this post from the start and agreeing or disagreeing with various peoples thought and comments, I must say that Ryan Farquhar's comment was very disappointing from a rider of his status, which is now in doubt.
What RF should remember is that 95% of the riders, in the classic races are, owner/riders, holiday racers and amateurs, who work and plan there racing year around the MGP and use there annual holidays to be able to compete, as well as all the time spent in the workshop, preparing there machines.
Of this 95%, there are 20 or 30 riders who are prospective REP winners and given the right circumstances would get a rep.
The rest of the entry perhaps, dream of getting near a rep but are happy to be competing on the mountain course. Of these, most are happy to show a year on year improvement in times and treasure a finishers award.
What we have got to watch out for is when the top ten and the bottom ten, become the same ten!! for that is the way it is heading.
I think the reason most of the riders want to race at the MGP is because of the "buzz" of competing on the mountain course, there is nowhere else like it. But, also there comes a time when you have to think, can you justify it anymore and is the pleasure of competing now being outweighed by the hassle of the TT Course Licence and extra expenses incurred.
Andy R has already said that he will not be returning, "old man returns" is saying the same thing, the rider who finished third in the lightweight classic this year, a good friend of mine, is also saying the same, eventhough he has started spending money on his bike for next year, because he has become disillusioned with the MGP, an event he has been involved in since he was 12 and one of the younger riders at 49. I am also very doubtful, especially after the way in which I was treated by the MMCC and the C of the C, at this year's MGP but that is another story!
I am sure that there are others as well, who are seriously looking at whether or not to return. I know that the weather over the past couple of years has not helped and other issues as well. So sorry RF, Will and David there might not be any classic races for you to compete, in or enough other riders to make a race of it!
Although I can't say that I agree with Will and David on some issues, we are all allowed to make our point, perhaps it is how each of us perceives Classic racing. The MGP cut-off is 1972,in that year the senior was won at 93.66 and the junior at 95.56. When the classic races were introduced in 1983, the senior was won at 94.68 and the junior at 93.28.
This to me, is the area in which we should be looking for rep times now, plus 2 or 3 mph for improvements.
Do we need or want 110mph laps in the classic races, no, sorry we don't, to me this will do as much damage to the races and entry as the introduction of the Honda's and the TT Course Licence together!
Tied in with this is the current professional, TT riders on pseudo-modern classic machines, as against period classics. At least Bob Heath rode a machine, in principle, that was of the period and available to the clubman racers.
The TT riders have always done well because they have two weeks in June to practice and race on the mountain course, which the normal MGP rider does not get, wouldn't we all be better for all that extra practice! Which is highlighted by the riders who have won a Classic race after competing in the TT in the same year.
The rules in 1983, when the classic races were introduced to the MGP, were based on the CRMC rules, i believe, should we not follow that now and put Period Classics in Group One and Pseudo-modern Classics in Group Two, one race, run concurrently.
Group One: Manx, G50, &R, Goldie, Velo, Triumph Twims, Norton Twins, Weslake, Ducati, Aermacchi, etc.
Group Two: Paton, MV, Gilera, Benelli, non of which were available to the clubman rider in the period, Honda,there racing pedigree of the period is at best doubtful and were never available with the variety of frames and components that are used now, and ultras short stroke Manx's which were never available and don't look like Manx's.
I am not against any of these machines, I have a Honda, but I think we have lost the meaning of the MGP Classic Races and what they were introduced for, not just to save the MGP but to allow these machine to be used on the mountain course.
So let's keep these two types of machine seperate as faras results are concerned but have one race with hopefully full grids.
These are just my ideas and views, I hope someone else agrees with me. I think that Tomcat and myself might be on the same lines.
All the very best wishes for the season to you all.
Roy Phipps (Norstar).
18-12-2009, 01:19 PM
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Stella Offline
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#46
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Have been reading this thread with interest and what an interesting and thoroughly well written reply.

I would like to think that the "real" ryan farqhuar would also read and consider your reply and give a response to the various points you have made.

Very best wishes of the season to you also.

Stella ~ Check your PM's I have sent two recently.

Malcolm
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*Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic*
(This post was last modified: 18-12-2009, 04:37 PM by Malcolm.)
18-12-2009, 01:49 PM
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larryd Offline
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#47
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Excellent, Roy.

Just add BMW twins to the Group One list and I'm with you in every detailIcon_exclaimIcon_exclaim

Angel
18-12-2009, 03:09 PM
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norstar Offline
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#48
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
(18-12-2009, 03:09 PM)larryd Wrote: Excellent, Roy.

Just add BMW twins to the Group One list and I'm with you in every detailIcon_exclaimIcon_exclaim

Angel

Thanks for that Larry. No problem with the BMW but would have to slow you down on those long straights, the poor old Goldie would never stay with you, I know add a third wheel!!!!
All the best to you and your good lady, Roy.
Hello Stella,
Thank you for your comments, much appreciated.
Roy.
Sorry Larry, the message to Stella should not have gone there!!!! Must learn how to do this one day.
(This post was last modified: 18-12-2009, 04:49 PM by norstar.)
18-12-2009, 04:20 PM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#49
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Very good points by Norstar. I just wish that the commitee would listen to all of us who have experience of the manx and must be able to offer valued opinions. Some of us filled in the survey that Harvey Garton did a few years ago. i mentioned in that, about a wet weather qualifying time, nothing ever came back until the classic riders meeting at the manx this year, when they said they may look at it. It is things like this when riders who close to the qualyfying times in the wet, only to be knocked back by a small margin. When we all know they are more than capable of the times in the dry. I have often said i don't think they have any idea what effort it takes to prepare for the manx, then to be possibly knocked back when only seconds off, no wonder riders are thinking it is not worth it. They should visit a club like Aintree, who do everything they can to help you ride. I know things have improved over the years, but the commitee have got to realise that the draw of the mountain course, as strong as it is, may not be enough to justify the cost.
18-12-2009, 05:14 PM
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Stella Offline
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#50
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
(18-12-2009, 01:49 PM)Stella Wrote: Have been reading this thread with interest and what an interesting and thoroughly well written reply.

I would like to think that the "real" ryan farqhuar would also read and consider your reply and give a response to the various points you have made.

Very best wishes of the season to you also.

Stella ~ Check your PM's I have sent two recently.

Malcolm
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Apologies Malcolm just checked my PM`s and found one from october also, never notice PM`s on this site as with other sites a small box usually pops up letting you know that a personal message has been recieved, so my knuckles duly wrapped ! Cannot find colour link either so bold black will have to make do.
Personally do not mind a racer being outspoken or at times controversial as public forums tend to lend themselves to postings such as his. But as I have since replied it would indeed be manners on his part to come back on and reply to the very relivent points made by a fellow racer of clearly many years experience wether he agrees with them or not.

Stella


Reciprocation, by the gentleman concerned, to any postings, is entirely of his own determination, however he is never required to give account of himself if he does not want to, as is everyone's right.

Malcolm
*Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic*
(This post was last modified: 18-12-2009, 07:41 PM by Malcolm.)
18-12-2009, 05:56 PM
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Stella Offline
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#51
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Thankyou malcolm, now for the pop up PM box please .....

Yes I appreciate his right of reciprocation, wether it was posted tongue in cheek or not, I for one would like to read his reply considering his stature in the sport. It almost only goes to confirm the negative press that i have read about him in the past despite his podium status as a very talented realroadracer.
*Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic*
18-12-2009, 11:56 PM
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norstar Offline
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#52
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
[Thank you Shipleymanx for your reply, there are more of us that think on the same line and want to see the Classic races at the MGP continue.
As you say Harvey did try and get ideas and thoughts from the riders, but nothing came from it, as far as we know, perhaps the Forgotten Era class and over 500cc Classic came from the survey.
I was told from my first MGP that the MMCC are a law unto themselves and I think this is very true, as you say they should see Dave Edwards and his team at Aintree and the Wirral 100 and a few of these clubs.
Unless you are part of the set-up, you don't know what is going on, until it is too late!! The MMCC seems a very closed shop, I don't expect my entry will get accepted again after saying that!!! They are never wrong, according to them.
I might not ride in the MGP again but I want to see it continue, so that I can watch other people get the pleasure from it, as I did and to see all types of classic machines competing.
19-12-2009, 01:09 PM
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Gstarron Offline
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#53
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Hmm... good reading.. Sorry, this is gonna get wordy..

There are times I think we all (me too) over simplify things.. So, back in the "day".. pick a year.. almost any year.. say 1958... were the 1938 bikes competitive..? So, here we are... trying to race old bikes, but we have the knowledge to make them just a bit better.. do you..? Do you still run a chain primary..? Do you still run clincher tires..? OK, we all now must run a lower chain guard, and oh my look at all the safety wire we now run.. Aha.. makes it for hard decisions, doesn't it..?

I was most impressed when there was an impromtu gathering in the Hailwood center two years ago.. and those there got heard... Not saying anything changed because of that.. but there were voices heard.. Much better than some other organizations.

So, speaking on this very topic, here in the States a new class is to happen for 2010.. We had a "Premier 500" class, and have good success with it.. however the same thing has happened.. OK, some back ground. First two years ago, a Paton showed up at just ONE race... and PRESTO, next year the rules changed.. only a TWO valve Paton was allowed in the 500 class. As there are none of those around that anyone knows of... GONE.. And that is sad... But that was not enough... so for this year, we have a Premier and a Classic Premeir.. The latter means stock bore and stroke, 4 speeds, stock frame and brakes... I won't predict the exact out come, as the two classes will run together, preventing the fastest guys from having two bikes... otherwise the results would be exactly the same.. the fast guys would still win... ahem... nuff said for now... I will gladly let you know how it goes after Daytona...

Cheers..!!

Ron - putting a bunch of old parts together to make an engine..!!
19-12-2009, 06:12 PM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#54
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
(19-12-2009, 01:09 PM)norstar Wrote: [Thank you Shipleymanx for your reply, there are more of us that think on the same line and want to see the Classic races at the MGP continue.
As you say Harvey did try and get ideas and thoughts from the riders, but nothing came from it, as far as we know, perhaps the Forgotten Era class and over 500cc Classic came from the survey.
I was told from my first MGP that the MMCC are a law unto themselves and I think this is very true, as you say they should see Dave Edwards and his team at Aintree and the Wirral 100 and a few of these clubs.
Unless you are part of the set-up, you don't know what is going on, until it is too late!! The MMCC seems a very closed shop, I don't expect my entry will get accepted again after saying that!!! They are never wrong, according to them.
I might not ride in the MGP again but I want to see it continue, so that I can watch other people get the pleasure from it, as I did and to see all types of classic machines competing.

Hi Norstar, i think you hit the nail on the head when you say that you might not get an entry if you speak out. I thought the riders reps were supposed to help with this type of thing, somebody you could speak to. Did you see them this year? Where as the ambassadors worked tirelessly to help things run this year. I know a few of the ambassadors feel as though they are not been listened to. Alot of people feel strongly about trying to keep the manx going, but surely the committee must realise that even the riders have limits of endurance.
19-12-2009, 06:19 PM
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Ryan Farquhar Offline
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#55
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Icon_lolIcon_lolIcon_lolIcon_lol
19-12-2009, 07:37 PM
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Stella Offline
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#56
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
(19-12-2009, 07:37 PM)Ryan Farquhar Wrote: Icon_lolIcon_lolIcon_lolIcon_lol

Yes well sometimes no words are needed ......pity tho ..... just confirmed what i have heard,and been PM`d ..... but personally always like to give a person the benifit of doubt........
*Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic*
19-12-2009, 08:27 PM
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Will Loder Offline
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#57
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Hi,

Firstly, I'd like to distance myself from Ryan's point regarding reps, I think what he said is totally insensitive. I have prepared bikes for people who have gone on to win their first ever rep after years of trying and I know how much it means to them.

The main reason I like the top TT riders there is that I like it when they get beaten by the ordinary classic lads. In 2008 when I was helping Paul Coward, Ryan came in and commented on how Paul's bike was 'much' faster than his (3mph on sulby), this really made me laugh considering the advantage that Ryan enjoys when he rides the Paton in the senior (10mph+)!!!! I still say that if Ryan was SO much better he should be able to win the Junior especially considering the spec of the Honda he rides.

Also as I have stated in the past the classic manx is the premier road race event for classic bikes, it is more comparable to the TT of the period than the MGP of ther period and in my opinion that is what we should be trying to recreate. The TT lap record was 111mph in the period so the times being achieved now really aren't all that suprising, the course is a hell of a lot faster now than it was in 1967!

How about having a 'Classic TT course license' where in order to compete you have to have competed in 6 race meetings on a classic bike, in the previous 12 months. This would rule out the TT riders who don't support classic racing all season. Or a rule to that effect. Basically you have to show evidence that you support classic racing in the UK or Ireland in more than 1 meeting.

If they split the manx as per CRMC rules the Paton would still be with the Manxes and Seeleys. However it would have to use drum brakes and internal oil pumps.
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Will Loder
(This post was last modified: 20-12-2009, 12:35 AM by Will Loder.)
20-12-2009, 12:34 AM
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norstar Offline
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#58
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Hello Will, the course licence idea is a good one but I think the riders who live on the island might disagree, as they only have the pre-TT and the Manx, in which to get signatures. The added expense of travelling to the mainland for three more meetings would make it too expensive, this is why they use modern bikes at Jurby.
Yes, the Manx Classic Races are the Premier Classic Races, and long may they continue to be but they are not the TT, nor should they be based around the TT of the period. The TT was a world championship event, with world champions amongst there numbers and a world apart from the MGP and what it was intended for.
I would love to have a classic race at the TT, then base it on the TT of the period but let us leave the Manx as intended!
As for the legallity of the Paton, or any other machine, I would not try to argue, what I was saying is, these machine were never available to clubman, MGP riders in the day, so why now. Let them race in a seperate class, not ban them or stop them racing. The idea is to encourage more riders and machines back, not put them of entering.
20-12-2009, 11:33 AM
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Will Loder Offline
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#59
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Hi Roy,

I didn't think of the classic racers living on the IOM, that is a good point. However there could be an exception for riders who have no classic races in which to compete. It would not have to be a license as such, perhaps just a rule.

How about having a seperate class for people who own their bikes. That way if you're an enthusiast with the money to buy a Paton or a super short stroke Manx you don't get lumped in with the sponsored TT riders.

Or maybe replica time should be based on an average of the winner and the first 'clubman'.

How about any bike in the race can be purchased immediately after the race by anyone for the sum of £18,000 senior classic and £12,000 junior classic. This is used in several formulas of racing to keep costs down. £18,000 is a lot for a 500 goldie racer, but it's cheap for a Paton, therefore Patons would have to get cheaper, get out, or people using them would risk loosing a lot of money.

I used £18,000 as i think it's a generous amount to develop a quick bike, but it's not ridiculous and it's about half the current cost of a Paton and its also less than a top manx. The Weslake my dad did 105mph lap would cost about £12,000 to build, so £18,000 is more than fair.

The Paton (apparently) was for sale in the day. I doubt any ordinary folk could afford it, much like now.

By the way, to say that the times today should reflect the times of the MGP in the period is just wrong......otherwise my dad would have easily been capable of winning the 1972 senior MGP on a 500 goldstar with a standard frame, standard brakes, a 4 speed box and standard DBD engine....... I DOUBT IT! The course is faster now and the tyres and brake linings are better, these have made a far bigger difference than anything else.
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(This post was last modified: 20-12-2009, 06:08 PM by Will Loder.)
20-12-2009, 05:40 PM
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norstar Offline
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#60
RE: So they should it was a disgrace
Hello Will,
What a good idea, to be able to buy the winning bikes, the queue would reach down to Douglas if a Paton or MV was up for grabs at £18,000. But seriously, I get the idea of what you mean but didn't that idea go wrong in America with the Triumph/BSA Group at Daytona in the early seventies?
As I said, my idea is to get more people racing at the Manx and the times from 1972, were suppose to be as a guide to Rep time.
We all know that the course is now faster than 1983, when the classic races were introduced and that race times are always going to improve but the idea is to get riders to enter the races and there has to be a realistic chance for a good rider to get a rep, not as this year.
I expect there are a good few different ideas, as to what is best for the MGP, I was just expressing mine with the two class idea and you have come up with a couple of others, so why aren't the MMCC with the ambassadors doing the same thing.
I know that the ambassadors did a good job at the MGP this year and are, perhaps, not helped or appreciated by the MMCC as much as they should be, or listened to, as they should be!
As another thought, I am not sure that having the over 500cc Classics in the senior race is a good idea, people might want to do the 500 and the over 500, as a few did this year but will now have to make a choice.
20-12-2009, 08:44 PM
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