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+--- Thread: So they should it was a disgrace (/showthread.php?tid=8415)
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - andyr - 12-11-2009
David's comments ring very true to me. I'm not wealthy and I was terrified of dropping a bike of that value. I'm sure it inhibited me the few times I raced it. It didn't steer itself as naturally as the Seeley or the Petty and quite frankly over the jumps, at the speed I was travelling, I was worried it would get away from me and I rolled it off a bit. I don't have experience of modern superbike racing and I wanted to stay alive!
I don't think the weight made it difficult to stop, just the speed you were arriving at. Way beyond my previous experiences. Steve, Oli and Ryan have a slight advantage there.
I needed loads of practice to get up to speed on a bike with that sort of performance and feel sure that with more practice on 'dry' roads I could have improved quite considerably. Unfortunately the recent years weather cancellations, damp roads, accidents, no morning practice and marshaling problems all went against that and I believe are responsible for the lack of improvment in laps speeds amongst most riders. Of course the TT riders have a huge advantage there, having had loads of laps in June!!!
This year the pit stop took forever and I was worried about incurring a time penalty so crept up the pit lane slipping the clutch all the way.
No real excuses, just different and it was a thrilling bike to ride.
I would have loved another go ( the weather could just be better next year?) but with disillusioned sponsors and a lack of family support I've had to stop. Maybe it was time anyway?
Andy R.
(12-11-2009, 12:04 PM)David Linsdell Wrote:(11-11-2009, 12:51 AM)Will Loder Wrote: At the same time we did 105mph with the weslake in 2003, the track is now faster (2mph +), and it doesn't need a pitstop, therefore a replica on a weslake is more than possible and you can build a brand new top spec one for a third of the price of the Paton.
I think too little is made of the fact that the Paton needs to make a pit stop - that is at least one minute lost there and then, and that's without the slowing down into the pit, and the time spent getting up to speed again.
Also, I have first hand experience that (unfortunately) having a ride on a Paton doesn't make you a winner. I was lucky enough to ride one at Donnington and Brands CRMC this season, and, despite it being a fantastic machine, I looked at the results sheets and still found myself midfield!
Whilst there is undoubtably a speed advantage, the Paton has a disadvantage through the twisties, and at at least 20kg more than a single I found myself struggling to make the bike stop! I also found myself scared of highsiding, or crashing a bike of considerable value and ended up pussyfooting around quite a few corners.
A quick look at Andy's results shows you that in previous years, on the norton or his g50 he averaged between 95 and 96 mph each year from 1995 onwards (give or take a few years). This year he averaged 97mph, and I'm sure the improvements to the track had an effect on that difference. Is this an unfair advantage?
In the 1992 Senior Classic dad averaged 103mph on a norton with 42bhp. This speed would achieve a replica in any year. In fact, a race speed of under 98mph would have achieved a replica this year (andy was around 30 seconds off I believe). If there was a bike out this year with less than 42bhp I would be suprised, so to say that a replica is unachievable because of the Paton is ludicrous. I maintain that a replica should be something that you strive for, and should not be easy. However, if altering this will encourage bikes back out then I am all for it. I fear that of the 105 bikes entered in 2004, many have been retired along with the riders, from racing altogether, be it age or money enforced. I know that I plan to enter the classic races one day, and hope they are still there when I come to make that decision - the owners of the bikes need to be encouraged to put younger riders on them, rather than hanging on to them as ornaments ifthe races are to surive.
David
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - larryd - 12-11-2009
I would have loved another go ( the weather could just be better next year?) but with disillusioned sponsors and a lack of family support I've had to stop. Maybe it was time anyway?
Andy R.
Andy, you're a star.
I'll always remember the blue 'Macchi in '78!!
Good luck in whatever you do now.
Larry Devlin
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - andyr - 13-11-2009
I'm afraid I've misled everyone and thanks to a very amicable phone call from Brian Richards I need to eat humble pie!
Bill Swallow rode Brian's[/u] Petty Manx in 500cc form to finish second in the 1999 Singles TT. In that race he lapped at over 108 mph.
The same year he won the Manx Grand Prix on that bike.
In 2000 the bike was in 570 form (entered as a BRS) and broke down in the race with ignition trouble.
Brian says that actually it didn't go as well in 570cc form as it had as a 500.
I was going from memory and the original conversations when we first met Brian to collect the bike in 2000. It was then in 570 form and I guess I presumed it had always been used in that form for the Singles TT races. WRONG!
Serious apologies to Brian and everyone concerned with those fine results which remain very important.
Andy R.
(10-11-2009, 11:33 AM)an old man returns Wrote:(10-11-2009, 11:23 AM)andyr Wrote: [/align][/b][align=left](10-11-2009, 10:59 AM)Will Loder Wrote: Alan's lap was following the Paton yes. He said that in lots of places Ryan was holding him up through the corners, but it did give him a tow down some of the straights. How much difference following the Paton made is tough to know, typically they're so much faster down the straights that it's impossible to slipstream them, so Alan must have been coming onto the straights a hell of a lot faster than the Paton to be anywhere near it.
Bill's TT bike was a 500, I believe Andy Reynolds can verify that as he used to ride it. Bob Heath played about with 650 G50 engines, alloy swingarms and more modern forks, but never really got it all working.
When we got the Petty that Bill rode it was 570cc and Brian Richards, the owner, told us that it was in that form that Bill rode it at the Singles TT, when he did the quick lap. When they cancelled the Singles TT the owner sold the 570 crank to the Summerfields and the bike is now in 500c form.
I tested it at Mallory Park in 570cc form and it didn't half pull!
I entered the 2000 Singles TT but we had the foot and mouth crisis and then the race was removed from the TT programme!
Brilliant bike though, even as a 500, 58bhp and perfect around the Island.
Befuddled or not the memory worked that time.
Will we see you return Andy? has Bill decided to call it a day too noticed his bike up for sale....thats a shame George will miss his chats with Bill
Larry, I have confession to make. I had the Aermacchi in blue as no one else had a blue 'macchi' and I wanted to be different. Most of my classic racing pals said it looked terrible and that I should have had it in traditional red!
Since than I've always had blue in the colour scheme of my race bikes and helmets and Don Wiiliamson (the Paton owner) even offered to have the Paton painted blue.
Fortunately I said 'No' it must be Paton green.
So no one has ever had to witness a blue Paton!!! Thank goodness.
Andy R.
(12-11-2009, 10:28 PM)larryd Wrote: I would have loved another go ( the weather could just be better next year?) but with disillusioned sponsors and a lack of family support I've had to stop. Maybe it was time anyway?
Andy R.
[b]Andy, you're a star.
I'll always remember the blue 'Macchi in '78!!
Good luck in whatever you do now.
Larry Devlin
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Tomcat - 24-11-2009
I'm sure the eligibility of the Paton has been assessed by the powers that be and whatever is happening inside those expensive cases is deemed irrelevant to the fact that the bike looks a bit like something that was made in the period. Such is classic racing and I'm no fan of the concept as the bikes out there bear little resemblance to the machinery of the period, but I accept that's the way of the world.
What I am less of a fan of, and I apologise if I've bored you with it before, is that current TT riders can come over to the classic MGP, scoop up all the pots and leave the clubmen who support the events year after year out of their own pocket with no hope of a Rep. All you guys who are used to being at the sharp end, you may feel "all's fair" etc but I know a lot of Holiday Racers (to use one dismissive term that has been levelled against us) who no longer want to come to the Manx because this is the last straw in a long line of p*sstakes. You may feel you can run a race with just a half dozen TT stars but I suggest to you that the falling grids tell a different story. Including new classes will help, for a while (well it's got me out of retirement!) but TT riders on replica works exotica will soon dampen any enthusiasm there too.
The rule allowing TT riders and past MGP winners to enter the classic events made sense originally as there was no progression in the class in the way that the main class winners were considered good enough for the TT, and should thus move on there. However the performance of the TT pot-hunters and the modification of the rules in the modern classes to allow TT riders to return after a couple of years TT retirement says to me it's time to adopt the same rider eligibility across the board.
You'd still get the rocketshops of course, but without TT riders on them at least every other rider wouldn't be hit with a double whammy to their Replica chances.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Will Loder - 01-12-2009
What is your definition of a TT pot hunter??
Presumably Ryan Farquar falls into this category. But what about people like Olie Linsdell? He supports classic racing in the UK and Ireland all the time. He was 500 classic national champion the year before last and regularly competes in events such as Scarborough that desperatley need to be supported by more classic racers. Is he a pot hunter or somebody who genuinely loves racing classic bikes? I think the latter!
What about Roy Richardson, he races at the TT and does bloody well, but he is by no means a professional rider and he has supported the classic races along with his father for a number of years.....
Does anyone remember the first year Ryan came on the Manx and Aermacchi he was competitiive but there was no way he was going to win. Anyway if he was too good to race in the MGP he'd be able to win the Junior Classic on a K4 wouldn't he?
I feel that the "all you guys used to being at the sharp end" comment is probably reffering to me and David. However I feel that I'm good friends with the full spectrum of MGP competitors not just the top 6 and in my experience the TT license, the price, reduced practice and the awfully terrible camping conditions are the primary reasons for the reduction of numbers. Coupled with people retiring and retiring their machines at the same time.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Tomcat - 04-12-2009
My definition is simple, vernacular notwithstanding. Should it need clarification I mean riders who have done the TT more recently than would be allowed for entry to the modern classes. Current TT riders are not allowed in those for, I believe, exactly the same reasons they should not be allowed in the classics.
I accept that would not prevent entry of some megabucks replicas or some blisteringly fast non-TT riders, however I do believe it would even the playing field somewhat. In the interest of a sporting event where the rank and file "Holiday Racers" have supported it out of their own pockets for years, but in declining numbers well before last year's debacle of "the Somme" - as you say Will there are multiple factors at work here but that doesn't mean any should be ignored if we want to retain the support base for the event.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - smokey125 - 04-12-2009
Tomcat you need to check the regs. Current TT riders and past Manx winners are allowed to ride in all Manx classes except the Junior and Senior.
A few thoughts, TT riders have always been allowed in the classic Manx races and have pretty much always dominated them. The last people who I can think of off the top of my head to win Senior and Junior classic races who weren’t racing the TT at the same time are Graham Rhodes and Derek Whalie.
If you banned current TT riders from the classic races there are no races you would take 10-15 riders out of each race straight away.
If TT riders were banned would other riders come back to fill the gaps?
Personal opinion there is no problem with the TT riders the problem is with lack of continuity in the eligibility rules and application of them equally to every machine.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Will Loder - 04-12-2009
I bet that you cant prove to me mathematically that it's any harder to win a replica now than it was in Bob Heath's heyday when more than 100 people raced regularly. The track is about 2mph faster and the race record is faster by about 2mph. Plus everyone must have improved their bikes even slightly. How is it harder?
I accept it's more difficult now than for the few years before Ryan started coming, but that is because the void left by Bob Heath was enormous and it took until 2007 for somebody to fill it! But entries were already in decline long before that (In the mid 1990s people were getting turned away because the grid was full)
I also think it is ridiculous to say that Olie Linsdell shouldn't be there. Surely in many ways he's the Bob Heath of today. He wins classic races on the short circuits, on the roads in Ireland, he has the best bike and he rides in the TT. The only difference is he's in his 20s not his 50s
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Tomcat - 08-12-2009
(04-12-2009, 02:58 PM)smokey125 Wrote: Tomcat you need to check the regs. Current TT riders and past Manx winners are allowed to ride in all Manx classes except the Junior and Senior.
A few thoughts, TT riders have always been allowed in the classic Manx races and have pretty much always dominated them. The last people who I can think of off the top of my head to win Senior and Junior classic races who weren’t racing the TT at the same time are Graham Rhodes and Derek Whalie.
Yep it was the Senior/Junior regs I was referring to, sorry if that wasn't clear.
As you say many classic winners have been current TT boys, before Graham and Derek you had the likes of Bob Heath and Bill Swallow. blistering fast men though not AFAIK TT riders. So as I said banning current TT riders wouldn't necessarily mean no super-fast boys at the front. However I do still maintain it would level the playing field a bit. At present the MMCC are striving to fill the grids by bringing in new classes, and well done them, bit of lateral thinking, only took 10 years. But if your rank and file continue to drift off as they have been it's still ultimately futile.
Ultimately if people believe that current TT riders on TT bikes should be allowed in all classes I'll accept I'm alone in my views. But I reckon if you got McGuinness and Plater entering the Senior on HM Hondas I think there would be a few upset people. That's all I'm saying.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - David Linsdell - 09-12-2009
(08-12-2009, 11:04 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Yep it was the Senior/Junior regs I was referring to, sorry if that wasn't clear.
As you say many classic winners have been current TT boys, before Graham and Derek you had the likes of Bob Heath and Bill Swallow. blistering fast men though not AFAIK TT riders. So as I said banning current TT riders wouldn't necessarily mean no super-fast boys at the front. However I do still maintain it would level the playing field a bit. At present the MMCC are striving to fill the grids by bringing in new classes, and well done them, bit of lateral thinking, only took 10 years. But if your rank and file continue to drift off as they have been it's still ultimately futile.
Ultimately if people believe that current TT riders on TT bikes should be allowed in all classes I'll accept I'm alone in my views. But I reckon if you got McGuinness and Plater entering the Senior on HM Hondas I think there would be a few upset people. That's all I'm saying.
Actually - Bob Heaths TT Record
It looks like the first year that Bob won the Senior Classic, he had also finished ninth in the Junior TT. This year Ryan finished 6th and 7th in the current incarnation of the Junior. What's the difference there? In fact, Bob competed in the TT until 1997, only two years before he stopped coming to the island all together. In his last year, 1997 he finished 11th in the ultra lightweight TT, one position and a few seconds behind a certain Joey Dunlop. (and just in front of some bloke called McGuiness...). The year before he finished fifth, about thirty seconds off the win. Coincidently another rider called Chris McGahan finished tenth in that race and Bud Jackson 13th. Both have been regular TT and Classic riders for years. Shall we ban them as well?
Throughout the years TT riders have peppered the classic field and by taking them away you would only detract further from the spectacle, and the event. I do not accept for a second that if you remove the TT riders that a larger number of classic only riders will come flooding out of the woodwork to replace them. I know from my family as well as anyone that this Island is like a drug, and riders only stop when they truly cannot continue. How many bikes are parked up in pensioners sheds right now because their owners can't swing their leg over them any more?
The owners, like their machines, are getting older and naturally dropping out of the running. Their bikes are then kept as ornaments and how is a younger rider to afford a classic racer to compete the island on? The only younger riders coming into the races are people like my brother and Chris Swallow, whos' families have the bikes already. Then there is cost. I know several 'older' riders who would dearly love to ride their bike around the island again, but can't afford it on their pensions!
I'm lucky enough myself to have backing from a lovely gentleman who can no longer ride himself for next year. If more owners were to do this then the sport would continue to flourish. Until this happens the owners of the best bikes (which have always been present - how far ahead was Heaths machine from the field?) are going to pluck out TT riders, as who else do they put on their bikes?
There are also the spectators to consider - people want to see a good race and despite the depleted field they got that this year. There was a tight battle for the lead between my brother and Ryan and a tight battle for third between Wattie and Mark Parrot (another competitive TT rider on the nicest G50 I've seen for a while). Take away the TT riders this year and the end of the first lap would have given you:
1. Wattie Brown
2. Steve Linsdell + 23 secs (on a home built Enfield - if you count him as an acceptable manx rider now?)
3. Andy Reynolds + 23 secs (On a Paton though, so he'd be banned!)
4. Keith Dixon + 15 secs
5. Ken Davis + 10 secs
6. Fernando Mendes + 4 secs (Obviously he's banned though - he's done 2 british GP's in the past...
Those gaps after one lap doesn't exactly make for an exciting race which is ultimately what the Manx needs to keep the spectators coming!
Sorry again for the long post,
David
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Will Loder - 09-12-2009
By the way I think you'll find Derek Whalley finished 19th in the 2004 lightweight TT which is coincidentally the year he won the Senior Classic MGP. Also should we ban Wattie Brown he raced in the TT up until 1997 and had an entry for 2001 until it was cancelled?!?!?!?!!?!?!
As far as I know the only rider to win the Senior Classic since 1990, who had not recently raced at the TT was Graham Rhodes.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Tomcat - 14-12-2009
Gentlemen, thanks for your sharing your thoughts and maybe it's time for me to bow out. I don't think we will ever reach agreement on this but maybe by airing our collective views some others may be tempted to rekindle their interest, or at least find a TT rider to lend their bikes to!
Time alone will tell who was right. I guess you have been speaking to different people from those I have spoken to (just call me Mr Holiday racer!), and in the end as you say take out the TT riders and would those who have left come back now to fill the gaps in the ranks. Maybe not, any more.
What can I say? It was good while it lasted
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - David Linsdell - 15-12-2009
(14-12-2009, 08:56 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Gentlemen, thanks for your sharing your thoughts and maybe it's time for me to bow out. I don't think we will ever reach agreement on this but maybe by airing our collective views some others may be tempted to rekindle their interest, or at least find a TT rider to lend their bikes to!
Time alone will tell who was right. I guess you have been speaking to different people from those I have spoken to (just call me Mr Holiday racer!), and in the end as you say take out the TT riders and would those who have left come back now to fill the gaps in the ranks. Maybe not, any more.
What can I say? It was good while it lasted
Aye, time to agree to disagree, I'll agree to that...
I for one hope it picks up as I want the race to still be there for me to compete in sometime in the future!
David
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Ryan Farquhar - 15-12-2009
Whats the big deal about a REP,is the buzz of the mountain course not what its about.It shows some want to talk the talk but not walk the walk.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - an old man returns - 16-12-2009
(15-12-2009, 11:51 PM)Ryan Farquhar Wrote: Whats the big deal about a REP,is the buzz of the mountain course not what its about.It shows some want to talk the talk but not walk the walk.
I trust you find it lonely with your head stuck up that dark and smelly place Ryan
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Malcolm - 16-12-2009
Now, Now gentlemen.
Vigorous debate is always welcome, however personal comments of an antagonistic nature are not.
Please refrain from making any personal comments against others when making your postings, otherwise said posts will be deleted.
Malcolm.
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Stella - 16-12-2009
I presume moderators check out the email address of anyone posting under a name that is known to the public b4 another thread descends into mud slinging ....
The actions that you have intimated should be undertaken, were undertaken immediately upon observing the subject posting.
Malcolm
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - an old man returns - 16-12-2009
(16-12-2009, 01:05 PM)Malcolm Wrote: Now, Now gentlemen.
Vigorous debate is always welcome, however personal comments of an antagonistic nature are not.
Please refrain from making any personal comments against others when making your postings, otherwise said posts will be deleted.
Malcolm.
My comment reflected my emotion to a benal unthoughtful comment left by the previous poster Malcom. I refrained from using the actual words.
He couldnt of posted a more inflamitory post if he tried.....
Last post I cannot be bothered with this diatribe any longer.
Regards
Ken Davis (An Old Man Returns)
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Gstarron - 16-12-2009
It is winter time.. easy to get a little bit of "cabin fever.."
All I know, is that I look at ALL the IOM (TT Course) races as: man (or woman), and machine AGAINST the TT Course.
Andy, really enjoyed meeting you at the Creg.. (yes we had some gleeful banter..in good fun..) And your finish was AWESOME..! Heck, everyone's finish was awesome..!
I can't wait for MGP 2010..!!
Cheers..!! Happy Holidays... and get ready for next year..!!!
Ron - THe Crazy Yank - working the streets with tin cup in hand.... with a sign saying "coins needed to attend the MGP..."
RE: So they should it was a disgrace - Stella - 16-12-2009
Merry Christmas ! and may your tin cup be overflowing by the end of the festive season
