Post Classic Regs
c iom tt Offline
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#21
RE: Post Classic Regs
They are trying to recreate another Goodwood Revival type of event, so the regulations will be adapted and changed to suit any bike that will draw bigger crowds and therefore the revenue streams that come with it.
There is nothing wrong with that as such, but at least be honest and dont insult peoples intelligence by pretending it is anything else.
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(This post was last modified: 05-01-2015, 04:37 PM by c iom tt.)
05-01-2015, 04:25 PM
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Alfie Noakes Offline
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#22
RE: Post Classic Regs
How many totally original/eligible bikes are out there that are commissioned properly and are capable of a competitive race and finish ?, out of the bikes that would be ready to go how many of the owners would want to risk the physical and mechanical demolition of their bikes ?. Sadly there aren't enough good XR69's, RC30's / OW01's etc to present a competitive grid, the event has to make money otherwise it has no future. I look at all the replica bikes in their various guises / paint schemes and they bring back good memories for me - that's what works for me and gets me back home. A bike i'd really like to see would be a freshly prepared TZ250A reverse cylinder, I think with a top rider on it you'd see somewhere in the early 120's.
05-01-2015, 05:34 PM
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c iom tt Offline
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#23
RE: Post Classic Regs
Part of the problem for me is it is danger of spliting the feild into two halfs, with one lot running period correct RC30, ZZR750 etc, a lot with a reasonable chance of getting a podium if it was not for ,the modern look-a-likes who would put on a good showing in the Senior.

The term 'Classic TT Race' is just a name to whip up nostalgia to sell VIP packages and T shirts, it has become little to do with the racing itself.
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05-01-2015, 05:57 PM
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Alfie Noakes Offline
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#24
RE: Post Classic Regs
If we hypothetically take away all the looky-likeys and bikes that aren't legit in absolutely everybody's eyes what kind/size of grid are we left with ? and without the more well known names on the looky-likeys would there be enough public appeal to raise the revenue needed to cover the event's costs ?. It kinda sounds like a Manx Grand Prix for older bikes which unfortunately by it's nature will only appeal to a minority, it would be lovely to see a grid full of defined period racing bikes but I can't ever see how we'd literally get enough bikes to fill it.
05-01-2015, 06:41 PM
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sticky Offline
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#25
RE: Post Classic Regs
I think it's an accepted fact amongst classic race fans that a lot of what's on the grid will be modern recreations (Molnar Manx - Paton etc) that are faithful (key word there...) to the original.

The 'XR69' could just as easily be recreated using an air-cooled engine that would make it a faithful replica that didn't get anyone's back up.  MD would (probably) still have won the first F1 Classic TT and you wouldn't have had the backlash that there was on the old forum about the nature of the bike.

I don't think the gentlemen of the DED really understand their market when it comes to the classics.  Figures would suggest that the re-branded MGP is increasing it's visitor numbers by approx 10% per annum but it was doing that anyway before they got involved!  I genuinely believe that the market for this event are less concerned with 'star names' but more interested in seeing the bikes that were racing 30-40 years ago.

By allowing bikes like this ersatz 'XR69', which will presumably continue to dominate, where's the incentive for people to spend time and money getting things like P&M, Harris or Egli Kawa/Suz/Yam race ready and particularly crowd pleasers like TZ750, RG500, RS500 when they haven't a hope in hell of being competitive.

They have a potential jewel of a meeting (and I very much include the Manx GP in that) but I'm really not convinced they're going to get it right.  As ever I'll happily stand corrected if they do!
05-01-2015, 06:58 PM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#26
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 04:01 PM)c iom tt Wrote: At least the YZR was as close to original as possible. The XR69 raced at the Classic TT only  look like the outline shadow of the original XR69.

And how would you know that ? were you there when they built it?, its a 500 gp two stroke and about as near to a road bike as a rcv211. The engines for formula 1 are supposed to come from road bikes that is one of the original rules of F1, the race is titled CLASSIC TT F1. Whilst you are on the subject of the article in pb it could be argued that the bike has returned to its roots as a road bike somthing that two stroke would never be any good at.
05-01-2015, 07:19 PM
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c iom tt Offline
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#27
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 07:19 PM)cregnybaa Wrote:
(05-01-2015, 04:01 PM)c iom tt Wrote: At least the YZR was as close to original as possible. The XR69 raced at the Classic TT only  look like the outline shadow of the original XR69.

And how would you know that ? were you there when they built it?, its a 500 gp two stroke and about as near to a road bike as a rcv211. The engines for formula 1 are supposed to come from road bikes that is one of the original rules of F1, the race is titled CLASSIC TT F1. Whilst you are on the subject of the article in pb it could be argued that the bike has returned to its roots as a road bike somthing that two stroke would never be any good at.
No, I was not there when it was built, but I did follow Padgets on Twitter where they posted photos of it over a few moths as it was re-built.
If you read my posts, I dont agree with the Yam being in the race either, but if they are going to run bikes like the XR69, it might as well be a free for all.
Where else can these XR69 look a likes be raced?
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05-01-2015, 07:38 PM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#28
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 02:23 PM)SeamasRC30 Wrote: I was told that all machines had to be 'original as possible' when I asked if or not I could use inverted forks on my RC30.
What did I see at this years classic ??  Censored

Kawasaki used upside down forks from about 91 on their 750s so if it was kawasaki's that you saw thats ok.
05-01-2015, 07:40 PM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#29
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 07:38 PM)c iom tt Wrote:
(05-01-2015, 07:19 PM)cregnybaa Wrote:
(05-01-2015, 04:01 PM)c iom tt Wrote: At least the YZR was as close to original as possible. The XR69 raced at the Classic TT only  look like the outline shadow of the original XR69.

And how would you know that ? were you there when they built it?, its a 500 gp two stroke and about as near to a road bike as a rcv211. The engines for formula 1 are supposed to come from road bikes that is one of the original rules of F1, the race is titled CLASSIC TT F1. Whilst you are on the subject of the article in pb it could be argued that the bike has returned to its roots as a road bike somthing that two stroke would never be any good at.
No, I was not there when it was built, but I did follow Padgets on Twitter where they posted photos of it over a few moths as it was re-built.
If you read my posts, I dont agree with the Yam being in the race either, but if they are going to run bikes like the XR69, it might as well be a free for all.
Where else can these XR69 look a likes be raced?

Pre TT CLASSIC plus OLIVERS MOUNT and probably more if i care to think .
05-01-2015, 07:43 PM
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c iom tt Offline
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#30
RE: Post Classic Regs
In what classes?
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05-01-2015, 08:03 PM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#31
RE: Post Classic Regs
Lets look at the big picture. they introduced this TTf1 + f2 class thinking they were going to get loads of RC30. 0w01s and such back on the track, Well the fact is both of those bikes as standard were almost next to also rans i/e not as good as there reputation, to get them right involved lots of special parts i/e HRC for Honda and YEC for yamaha. well most if not all of these parts have dried up now not available and to add to that the price of these bikes have exploded why would anybody want to take a chance of blowing their bike up that could potentially make them next to worthless, more likely they would buy something less valuable that could be raced thrashed and then be repaired should the worst happen, i think this is what we had untill they let Bruce ride that two stroke, that bike is in a totally differant league to everything in the race. i can see MD not wanting to ride next year unless they can find a two stroke for him, they may be able to find a few of these two strokes but not a grid full like they have now. they were even turning entries down last year but if they carry on it could easily go the other way.
05-01-2015, 08:25 PM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#32
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 08:03 PM)c iom tt Wrote: In what classes?

pre TT race 8 post classic superbike. olivers mount Barry sheen memorial race
05-01-2015, 08:30 PM
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commandoz Offline
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#33
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 06:58 PM)sticky Wrote: I think it's an accepted fact amongst classic race fans that a lot of what's on the grid will be modern recreations (Molnar Manx - Paton etc) that are faithful (key word there...) to the original.

The 'XR69' could just as easily be recreated using an air-cooled engine that would make it a faithful replica that didn't get anyone's back up.  MD would (probably) still have won the first F1 Classic TT and you wouldn't have had the backlash that there was on the old forum about the nature of the bike.

I don't think the gentlemen of the DED really understand their market when it comes to the classics.  Figures would suggest that the re-branded MGP is increasing it's visitor numbers by approx 10% per annum but it was doing that anyway before they got involved!  I genuinely believe that the market for this event are less concerned with 'star names' but more interested in seeing the bikes that were racing 30-40 years ago.

By allowing bikes like this ersatz 'XR69', which will presumably continue to dominate, where's the incentive for people to spend time and money getting things like P&M, Harris or Egli Kawa/Suz/Yam race ready and particularly crowd pleasers like TZ750, RG500, RS500 when they haven't a hope in hell of being competitive.

They have a potential jewel of a meeting (and I very much include the Manx GP in that) but I'm really not convinced they're going to get it right.  As ever I'll happily stand corrected if they do!


1st post here so might as well be a bit controversial. The 4 valve molnar Nortons are not recreations of the original and as far as I know are not eligable for CRMC events. Having said that they are very well engineered and I would love to own one. (be an awesome trackday bike ). Think LarryD has it about right, just make the rules up as and when someone comes up with an idea to break a lap record and stuff originality.
05-01-2015, 08:31 PM
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BenjiesDad Offline
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#34
Wink  RE: Post Classic Regs
Yikes what have i started ! Lol
Only wanted to know if i could run a 87/88 NSR at the Manx,

But its a good way to get people talking Lol
05-01-2015, 09:02 PM
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c iom tt Offline
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#35
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 08:25 PM)cregnybaa Wrote: Lets look at the big picture. they introduced this TTf1 + f2 class thinking they were going to get loads of RC30. 0w01s and such back on the track, Well the fact is both of those bikes as standard were almost next to also rans i/e not as good as there reputation, to get them right involved lots of special parts i/e HRC for Honda and YEC for yamaha. well most if not all of these parts have dried up now not available and to add to that the price of these bikes have exploded why would anybody want to take a chance of blowing their bike up that could potentially make them next to worthless, more likely they would buy something less valuable that could be raced thrashed and then be repaired should the worst happen, i think this is what we had untill they let Bruce ride that two stroke, that bike is in a totally differant league to everything in the race. i can see MD not wanting to ride next year unless they can find a two stroke for him, they may be able to find a few of these two strokes but not a grid full like they have now. they were even turning entries down last year but if they carry on it could easily go the other way.
The bottom line is they could have run the XR69 with GS1000 engines,with period carbs, period size rims and wheel sizes etc, MD would still have won, and no one would have been complaning.
Instead, the orginaisers got cute, John Simms got clever behind the scenes, everyone expects to see a grid full of bikes from the past on the grid, John Simms bike wins, and rubs everyones noses in it.
So what happens then? Just As I predicted, someone else gets cuter than John Simms, and Padgets turn up with the YZR the following year and people start complaning that that bike should not be in the race.
I think you have more chance of the grid getting smaller if they dont get it into check than they will if they carry on like this.
Have you seen how much one of the XR69 look a likes are? Its still cheaper to buy a RC30 and throw 5 grand preping it.
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05-01-2015, 09:27 PM
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Steady the Edward Offline
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#36
RE: Post Classic Regs
The very bottom line is pay enough money and you can have a run round in your grannies hatchback ,

Nick says big changes for 2016 according to MrP , well when it came in they said they were puting extra funding in and it would take three years to evaluate how it was going , so mmm was the extra funding cost efective , its fine to have a 10% extra visitor turn out but if that extra 10% is costing 40% extra to achive ?? you tell me , how about cutting it down to a festival loong weekend , cost less to put on , lot less inconvenience ,try that for three years , then bin it not worth the bother , who was that man that said the MGP was too much of an inconvenience and should be scraped then got a job in the DED motor sport dept ?? wonder if he is going to get his way after all ,
06-01-2015, 12:07 AM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#37
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 09:27 PM)c iom tt Wrote:
(05-01-2015, 08:25 PM)cregnybaa Wrote: Lets look at the big picture. they introduced this TTf1 + f2 class thinking they were going to get loads of RC30. 0w01s and such back on the track, Well the fact is both of those bikes as standard were almost next to also rans i/e not as good as there reputation, to get them right involved lots of special parts i/e HRC for Honda and YEC for yamaha. well most if not all of these parts have dried up now not available and to add to that the price of these bikes have exploded why would anybody want to take a chance of blowing their bike up that could potentially make them next to worthless, more likely they would buy something less valuable that could be raced thrashed and then be repaired should the worst happen, i think this is what we had untill they let Bruce ride that two stroke, that bike is in a totally differant league to everything in the race. i can see MD not wanting to ride next year unless they can find a two stroke for him, they may be able to find a few of these two strokes but not a grid full like they have now. they were even turning entries down last year but if they carry on it could easily go the other way.
The bottom line is they could have run the XR69 with GS1000 engines,with period carbs, period size rims and wheel sizes etc, MD would still have won, and no one would have been complaning.
Instead, the orginaisers got cute, John Simms got clever behind the scenes, everyone expects to see a grid full of bikes from the past on the grid, John Simms bike wins, and rubs everyones noses in it.
So what happens then? Just As I predicted, someone else gets cuter than John Simms, and Padgets turn up with the YZR the following year and people start complaning that that bike should not be in the race.
I think you have more chance of the grid getting smaller if they dont get it into check than they will if they carry on like this.
Have you seen how much one of the XR69 look a likes are? Its still cheaper to buy a RC30 and throw 5 grand preping it.
First of all the organizers are anything but cute, secondly john Simms is clever he built a bike that was within the new rules and also sold some on i believe to other competitors so there was competition out there, also the 750s were getting sorted by now look at how well the zxr kawasaki's were going, look at their times as against MD on the big xr69 and Gary Johnson xr 69 but with yamaha engine oh my its another none genuine xr.  padgetts didn't get cute they just entered it why it was accepted who knows.

 yes xr 69s are expensive but replacable. 5 grand on a rc 30 well there aint any bits about now but if there was 5k would get you nowhere. Ask nick he may tell you what he spent on his.
i believe this class was just starting to even up now with the newer 750s against the OLDER 1300s then they let this 500 gp bike run. what the class needs is stabillity does anybody know whats happining in eight and half months time ?????? not really so how can you prepare. 
06-01-2015, 01:26 AM
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#38
RE: Post Classic Regs
Eddy if any attempt is made to cut the Festival down to a long weekend when do newcomers get the chance to practice. They make the Classic element into a long weekend but the Manx is the important factor for the future of the TT.
06-01-2015, 09:38 AM
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#39
RE: Post Classic Regs
I can see the argument from both sides, they have to attract people to the island to justify the outlay, but they have to keep the competitors happy by giving them a chance to achieve something. I know they have split the classes up, to try and give the amateurs a chance of winning something. I have a 91 RS 250, i have run this at the manx since the start of the Post classic races. Every time that bike goes out it cost alot to run, also i am always glad to see it come back up the out of Govenors as i know its back in one piece, as i know if it has a major off on the island, that could be the end of the bike. What do i do, run it at the manx, or not. This is the real dilemma that a lot of owners face when they consider doing the Classic TT. Why risk a genuine GP bike, when you can run a road based bike for a lot less. But then you dilute the whole reason we are there. We have to be careful that the short term gain doesn't eventually kill the event. I also run a 250 T20, this class has now been mixed in with the 350 race as the numbers were dropping. But again my T20 is as original as possible, i am still running original cranks and crankcases, but can be next to bikes that are 6 months old. My question is if they are going to be big changes for 2016, let us know now, so we can plan. I can't afford to go out and buy a bike next Oct-Nov, or when ever it will be announced, and have it ready for the Classic TT. Also another question, is the general public bothered that my bikes are original and the next one to me is relatively new, do they give a hoot? Because ultimately they along with the owners/riders will decide if we will still have a Manx/ Classic in years to come
06-01-2015, 10:07 AM
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#40
RE: Post Classic Regs
One thing for sure, Classic Racing is not racing on the cheap. Or is it? It is if you're comparing it to racing in BSB every other weekend.
I'm sure most folk are comparing Classic Racing with racing at Club events on a modern 3/4 cylinder machine, and modern club racing is modest in cost.
If you are looking at running something pretty trick at the Classic TT, you're facing extremely high costs. Creg ny Baa mentioned my RC30, and the costs of running that are off the graph. Sadly, even if you gave the bike to HRC to prepare, and put MD or Bruce onto it, it ain't going to beat an "XR69" or a YZ500, so there is no incentive for me to make it go faster.
Shipley Manx mentioned whether the public care that his bike is original, and the one next to it is not. Sadly Shipley Manx, they DON'T care, especially if, because the bike is tired, it only comes round once. The spectators just need bikes on the track, and the modern replicas are obviously more reliable. How many riders in the 350/500 race are running original Manx's 7Rs or G50s? I think the answer is none. 
The only thing that bothered me about the F1 Classic is that the bikes that are doing the winning were NEVER on the original class known as Formula1. In fact the fake "XR69" has NO racing pedigree whatsoever. At least the YZ500 is a genuine race bike, albeit a GP bike that would have licked the F1 bikes into the dust years ago. The "XR69" was created by the very clever and subtle change of the original rules as laid out in September 2012 which stated that all four strokes above 750cc had to be manufactured before 1986, by which I presume meant 31st December 1985. Then the regulations came out and they had changed that date to "before 31st December 1986. And that meant that the original air cooled XR69, could become a GSXR1100 engine hybrid with an engine as big as 1299cc if you wanted, and guess what the GSF1200 is still around looking exactly like an old GSXR1100! Arise Sir "XR69", oh, and these bikes are available from........
So you have a bike that was never raced being the bike of choice for a Classic race that is meant to recreate the original F1 race. Even the advertising promoted the "chance to see RC30s OWO1s GSXR750s and ZXR750s back on the TT course.
Well that's true, they are out there, but with the exception of the ZXR750, nowhere near the front, and as parts for them become scarcer, this will continue.
Back to the spectators, well they're happy to see bikes on the track, which is why the event is a success, and despite my misgivings, I support it.
06-01-2015, 11:21 AM
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