Post Classic Regs
Alfie Noakes Offline
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#41
RE: Post Classic Regs
The other thing that gets lost in the happy memories of time is that an RC30 in stock form makes around 95bhp at the back wheel, has an 18" rear wheel and a narrow front wheel, overheats and doesn't have much top end grunt. To change all this and be reasonably competitive(it wasn't any different in the 90's) you'll need as a bare minimum - wheels, race rear shock, front fork revalve, kit radiators, kit airbox and induction, baffled deep sump, kit valves / cams, kit exhaust system, kit ignition, flowed/matched cylinder heads and somebody who can put all this together properly .. then after that you're into the horrendously expensive carbs for that last bit of bhp The OW01 was much the same but did have some trick parts fitted as stock - Ti rods, mag parts, ohlins rear shock but was much more expensive than an RC30. These aren't parts you can order on a next day delivery service either. After you've done all that will it be as cost effective and reliable as a built like a brick sh*thouse GSXR1100 engine ?, does anybody honestly think there'd be many more true period bikes out there if the "controversial" bikes weren't on the grid ? - sadly I don't think there would as being bluntly honest it's easier and more cost effective to put a faster 1100 bike out there.
06-01-2015, 11:51 AM
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Splashdown Offline
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#42
RE: Post Classic Regs
You're not wrong Alfie! Actually, my RC had 103 bhp  at the back wheel, but all dynos vary.
My factory (NLOB) RC had 128 on the Micron dyno, which was always considered a fair dyno.
I'd love to run that bike, but it's just too precious!
Best dig out an old GSXR1100 then!
06-01-2015, 12:13 PM
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Steady the Edward Offline
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#43
RE: Post Classic Regs
Nev14

What I said Nev was not my words it was statements made by the people at the top who make the decisions ,
the first point being an accountant I would have thought you would understand more than most spending £40 to make £10 is a no go end of

, then I made the point that A man that got a job in the DED motor sports dep said a couple of years before he got the job that the Manx was too much of an inconvenience and should be scraped , the rights and wrongs of that statement is something we who love the Manx disagree with, but I point it out to show the mind set of some of the people that are in influential positions ,


.
06-01-2015, 12:31 PM
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c iom tt Offline
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#44
RE: Post Classic Regs
Maybe I am looking at this to much through rose tinted glasses.

If all the bikes are making around 95bhp, what difference does it make?
I also have no problem with watching a grid full of XR69 type bikes with all the mod cons they have.
I just think it is fundermently unfair to pass these off as replicas of the originals as they were in the first year.
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06-01-2015, 01:20 PM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#45
RE: Post Classic Regs
(06-01-2015, 11:51 AM)Alfie Noakes Wrote: The other thing that gets lost in the happy memories of time is that an RC30 in stock form makes around 95bhp at the back wheel, has an 18" rear wheel and a narrow front wheel, overheats and doesn't have much top end grunt. To change all this and be reasonably competitive(it wasn't any different in the 90's) you'll need as a bare minimum - wheels, race rear shock, front fork revalve, kit radiators, kit airbox and induction, baffled deep sump, kit valves / cams, kit exhaust system, kit ignition, flowed/matched cylinder heads and somebody who can put all this together properly .. then after that you're into the horrendously expensive carbs for that last bit of bhp The OW01 was much the same but did have some trick parts fitted as stock - Ti rods, mag parts, ohlins rear shock but was much more expensive than an RC30. These aren't parts you can order on a next day delivery service either.  After you've done all that will it be as cost effective and reliable as a built like a brick sh*thouse GSXR1100 engine ?, does anybody honestly think there'd be many more true period bikes out there if the "controversial" bikes weren't on the grid ? - sadly I don't think there would as being bluntly honest it's easier and more cost effective to put a faster 1100 bike out there.

C iomtt was suggesting 5k would help the RC 30, Welll i think that 5k would buy the wheels and maybe the shock??.
06-01-2015, 01:20 PM
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c iom tt Offline
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#46
RE: Post Classic Regs
It still does not mater how much BHP the bike is making if all the bikes are about the same.
Yes, 5k on a RC30 may be off the mark, but it would go a long way on a GSXR/ZZR750 etc, and you dont always have to buy brand new wheels and shocks.
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06-01-2015, 01:26 PM
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cregnybaa Offline
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#47
RE: Post Classic Regs
(06-01-2015, 01:26 PM)c iom tt Wrote: It still does not mater how much BHP the bike is making if all the bikes are about the same.
Yes, 5k on a RC30 may be off the mark, but it would go a long way on a GSXR/ZZR750 etc, and you dont always have to buy brand new wheels and shocks.

Yes your right 5k would go a long way with a gsxr/zzr in fact i didn't spend much more than that to build a complete bike that ran for the whole meeting without putting a spanner on it other than to change tyres and a oil cooler that had split averaging over 110mph for the race.
06-01-2015, 01:42 PM
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larryd Offline
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#48
RE: Post Classic Regs
Steady and Nick have, in different ways, their fingers on the right buttons.

Firstly, I think that we must never forget what that potential DED employee said about the Manx GP, some years ago - and I know who is being referred to here, and where he is now - "the man who saved the TT" indeed.

And Nick - was there not a prior discussion between a DED man and the builder of 1300cc "XR69"s?

Censored

Come in D*ck (that's Richard!!) L - where are you?
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2015, 03:57 PM by Malcolm.)
06-01-2015, 01:58 PM
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Steady the Edward Offline
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#49
RE: Post Classic Regs
I have said it before I feel that the Mountain course is not the place for the Classics to race , by the very nature of classic bikes they are a diminishing bread , so to fill the grid they have to open it up to that many different classes within classes , that it becomes a sham of a race what with period originals , then the new build ?? what ever's , don't get me wrong I love to see the classic's , just love them !! but on the Mountain ?? sorry no not for me, I was there for the first one but not sure if I will ever do it again
06-01-2015, 03:02 PM
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SeamasRC30 Offline
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#50
RE: Post Classic Regs
(05-01-2015, 02:36 PM)Splashdown Wrote: Yes, it's a sad fact, that if you're going to run an original F1 Classic bike in the Classic TT, as I have done, you will be completely outpaced, (as I was!).
I don't recall seeing an RC30 with upside down forks, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was one.
I think the event is fantastic, and I can see why it's a success, but some of the "blind eyes" that have allowed totally illegal bikes leaves me a bit cold.
Yes, I reckon having all over 750s as air cooled is an excellent suggestion.
Anyway, nothing will change for this year, but I understand that there will be big changes next year.
I wonder what Mr Phillips has up his sleeve for then?

Yeah there was one there Nick, I don't know if you know him, only got his first name - Wayne AKA "CIDERMAN" had them on his bike.
When I asked him about it, he said he'd proved that RC's had ran upside down forks in that "era" by showing the laws above a picture !?
Anyway, he had mechanical issues with his bike and it never ran.

I know it's precious as you said but, make me, and everyone else extremely happy again by getting the NLOB out again.  Icon_biggrin
06-01-2015, 03:32 PM
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canamant Offline
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#51
RE: Post Classic Regs
To me it's becoming obvious that the F1 race is becoming more of a popular spectacle than a period race.  I've no problems with replicas being built and used but they should be faithful replicas.  In Classic racing the onus is on the entrant/rider to show that a particular component or combination of components was used within the cut off date.  That leaves us with air cooled motors in xr69 chassis, or 750/1100 slabside based oil cooled GSXRs.  Even then, when the oil cooled engines became available, F1 had already reduced capacity to 750cc so the 1100s are outside the original format anyway.  It appears to me that the rules regarding eligibility are now firmly (loosely?) based on whether the bikes look pretty, go fast enough to push the speeds close to TT speeds, or are deemed interesting enough to get some publicity.  The race needs variety in it, but that variety should be limited to the machinery available and raced during the period.
07-01-2015, 01:22 AM
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Splashdown Offline
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#52
RE: Post Classic Regs
Thank you Ant, spot on. That seemed a fairly comprehensive summary of where the rules OUGHT to be.
07-01-2015, 12:13 PM
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Max Power Offline
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#53
RE: Post Classic Regs
The actual racing at the Classic TT is a boring procession punctuated by retirements. It is only the bikes which make it interesting!

The MMCC were fighting a losing battle to run races within classic regulations due to the dwindling numbers of people willing to let riders loose on their valuable machinery. The CTT has gone some way to remedying this by offering cash incentives, free entries and more relaxed regulations.

Without this more enlightened view, we wouldn't have Classic racing at all, to support the main event, the MGP! Wink
07-01-2015, 05:07 PM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#54
RE: Post Classic Regs
Hi Max power, i wish the Manx was the main event, sadly i don't think the powers that be see it that way. It will be interesting to see what happens when the MMCC have to apply to run the event after this year, as i believe they only had a three year licence to run it. I hope they get a renewal
07-01-2015, 05:18 PM
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BenjiesDad Offline
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#55
RE: Post Classic Regs
Loving what i started here,
Getting some great comments in from everybody,
But still none the Wiser what bike i could put out in the smaller classes,,
And No !! i dont what to get in touch with He Who thinks hes God to ask a simple question that should be in the public Domain !!!!
07-01-2015, 08:35 PM
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canamant Offline
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#56
RE: Post Classic Regs
Ok then.  The 2014 Regs are on the Classic TT part of iomtt.com under competitors

In short the F2 class is 126cc - 350cc 2strokes in 2 groups.  1/1/68 to 31/1/86 and 1/1/87 to 31/12/92

4 strokes twins up to 750cc.  1/1/73 to 31/12/86
4 stroke fours up to 600cc.  1/1/73  to 31/12/86.

Road based race bikes fall into that category.  F2 was road derived engines fitted to race frames or road frames.  If it's a stroker you are considering I'd try and make it look race based.  Not sure whether an original LC would cut it.  350 YPVS look easy to TZify.

I'd contact the race office or you could end up like me last year.  Bike ready to go in F1 and got told just after the TT that I wasn't accepted.  In my case not a bike issue so I was told, just oversubscribed, and I wasn't quick enough in 2013 (22m59s) to make the cut.  However if it was an XR69 lookalike rather than a slabby 750 might I have made the cut ?  Much as you don't want to, I'd get it from the horse's mouth.
08-01-2015, 12:12 AM
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c iom tt Offline
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#57
RE: Post Classic Regs
New RC30 parts do still come up from time to time, you just have to keep looking.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-RC30-RC3...249wt_1190
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24-01-2015, 11:59 AM
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bud62 Offline
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#58
RE: Post Classic Regs
I would just like to add my experience of running a "genuine" 750 Formula 1 bike at the Classic TT in 2013.

Ryan Kneen rode my OW01 when he finished third in the inaugural Classic F1 race.

Unfortunately for Ryan there was no "Joey Dunlop" trophy for the first 750 to finish until last year (2014), but never mind.

For the record, the bike is (was) a roadbike before this race, but we did not have any history on it and it was definitely in need of some TLC when we got it.

When the engine was stripped, it was not in too bad a shape, apart from all 20 valves being completely shot, so it had a new set of valves (common OW01 problem). The engine was bog-stock bore & stroke It's a bit of a long story, but in a nutshell we could not get any rings for the original 2-ring pistons, (the pistons were within spec.), so we had to buy NOS Yamaha pistons to fit the new rings. We also ran the STANDARD CV roadbike carbs. The only "trick" items on the bike (apart from the rider) were the original YEC "kit" ignition box (allows higher red-line) and the original YEC muffler (we even left the EXUP valve working). The cams were standard. The head had a 10 thou' skim and that was the sum total of the tuning! Dyno showed 120 bhp (the engine builder said it was a really good motor and was chuffed to bits at this reading).

We (the crew-chief to be honest) thought that the biggest importance was to make the bike reliable and then we maybe had a chance of a top 10 finish.........how right he was!

Ryan said the bike was fantastic to ride and he obviously enjoyed it as he got ahead of the official YEC OW01 in the race on time (before it crashed at Ramsey Hairpin).

It's a pity the two bikes in front of him at the finish were replicas, but hey-ho, we all had a great time and Ryan had a bit of luck when it ran out of fuel at the end of the last-lap but did not cost him a result.

In terms of cost......it's not cheap, but then again, it was not outrageous and I don't regret it for a minute.

Bike is for sale if anyone is interested? It has not been used since the last Jurby meeting of October 2013, when it finished third (I think?) in the modern 1000cc superbike class races and won the classic by a mile.
(This post was last modified: 24-01-2015, 01:05 PM by bud62.)
24-01-2015, 01:05 PM
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partimer
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#59
RE: Post Classic Regs
I think is fair to point out that the original idea for a Post Classic race at the MGP came from the MMCC and was supported by the MGP ambassadors at the time. The rules then where much discussed and while not perfect they were at least reasonably fair and under review.
The DED came along denied the MGP and the MMCC any kind of support and in fact did all the could to destroy the MGP and MMCC. Remember the Save the MGP campaign.
The Classic TT was created with rules to suit certain wealthy individuals with not a care for those riders who had originally supported and ridden in the Post Classic MGP races and many bikes built for that class suddenly became redundant.

The DED care not a jot for racing or racing classes or rules. The only thing they want is so called superstar riders riding round of anything that look vaguely old in order to bring in so called fans and more importantly their money. ALL of it on the backs of free labour.

At least Turpin wore a mask.
27-01-2015, 01:17 PM
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BRADDAN OAK Offline
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#60
RE: Post Classic Regs
PARTIMER, I LIKED THAT ONE. " AT LEAST TURPIN WORE A MASK." AH AH.
 
27-01-2015, 01:53 PM
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