I think that this years Classic Senior will be perhaps one of the most interesting so far. For that we probably have the Patons to thank, as this debate goes on and on !

Of course that is just my opinion, and it could be rubbish as well Kenny.

With new bikes still being attracted (thanks to Gstarron for the other side of the coin) despite all the doom and gloom, it's likely that the Classic races will survive a few year yet. I for one hope so, having spent a very large part of my youth and a fair proportion of our hard earned cash being involved in, supporting and generally loving the Island and the whole race "club".

Perhaps we should all be more worried by the spate of potential court compensation cases listed over the past few months- if anything finishes off racing on the Island, both TT and Manx, it is likely to be the insurers pulling the plug.

Let's all of us enjoy it whilst we can- safe rides to all, and let's have a great Manx.

sticky Wrote:Steve Linsdell is at No:3 on the Paton and Gary Johnson at No:4 on the MV, so when they start together I hope Charlie Lambert STFU and lets everyone hear it on t'radio

as a play on words "hear hear"

Hi all..! Sorry if I got a tad strong on my last posting... but true, I do feel strongly about it all. Over here, you would never get to see an MV3 raced... what an opportunity..! And as a gearhead, I love the sound of bikes like that.. I did get to see a Paton raced over here last year... yes it was fast... past the fastest Manx on the last lap like it was standing still... only to run out of gas on the back side.... ooops.. (gotta first finish to finish first...).

In fact on my first trip over to the MGP in 2000, my pal Dave tape recorded the bikes in the Classic Classes, and the practice sessions with lots of different bikes. I listen to that tape, and smile... the sounds... ah the sounds... they are all different to some degree... and that also translates to what is on the course... lots of different bikes and riders.

The last two years over here at the Moto GP, Honda brought out some of the old race bikes, the 4's and 6's. Then a couple of times a day, one of them got fired up... it put tears in my eyes..! To see a Honda 6 raced again would be awesome..! Oh yes, ticklers on all 6 of those tiny carbs... ah....

If there were no MGP, then the entire classic world would lose..! Just go to Castletown on Sunday and see lots of old bikes....

I could go on forever.... and I am just ever so grateful to be able to visit the Isle and absorb all it has to offer..!

Cheers..!!!

Ron - 7 days until first practice..!!

Carole Wrote:I think that this years Classic Senior will be perhaps one of the most interesting so far. For that we probably have the Patons to thank, as this debate goes on and on !

Of course that is just my opinion, and it could be rubbish as well Kenny.

With new bikes still being attracted (thanks to Gstarron for the other side of the coin) despite all the doom and gloom, it's likely that the Classic races will survive a few year yet. I for one hope so, having spent a very large part of my youth and a fair proportion of our hard earned cash being involved in, supporting and generally loving the Island and the whole race "club".

Perhaps we should all be more worried by the spate of potential court compensation cases listed over the past few months- if anything finishes off racing on the Island, both TT and Manx, it is likely to be the insurers pulling the plug.

Let's all of us enjoy it whilst we can- safe rides to all, and let's have a great Manx.

Thank you for making the patronising personal comment Carole, stick to the points and ideals debated. No need for that

NOW NOW
Boys and girls lets keep it civilised.............

Hold on, Kenny, I see nothing patronising in what Carole has said, but you, on the other hand have repeatedly referred to other people's contributions as rubbish.
Enough all round... I will start zapping if this continues. The discussion has been excellent and has raised some good, and eminently debatable points.
Lets encourage new members, especially as some have been young and enthusiastic, by showing respect for their well thought out, and passionately held stances, even if they differ from your own.
Any personal stuff will be removed forthwith.
Personally, I am very excited about the whole Manx, Classic and modern, and amazed by the standard of entries, both from the machine and from the rider point of view.

Well I was trying to keep it a bit light hearted, but obviously failed- certainly wasn't trying to patronise anyone.

Come on Kenny, everyones got their own views, and there's surely room for all of them without uncivil, unwarranted comments.
I have always tried to be polite to everyone- face to face, and on forums such as this- there is certainly no need to take exception to anything I say.

Witch, thanks for your support- and by the way, love the Good old days comments!

Regards to all,

Carole

gstarron how good to read your bit.you know what its all about dont u.i rode the manx many years ago and it never was a level playing field.remember the works ajays the first g45,you couldnt buy one of those.then there was a fellow called phil read to compete against.and in the TT surtees going so fast many never got a rep.but i found that competing against the best was the point of it.you then knew were you stood in the order of things.on all circuits we always had top riders to compete against.but you learn more in one race in such company.than a year of the club races we have now.lindsell senior is first and foremost an enthusiast and bringing the patton out is brilliant.the TT has no variety for the spectator all machines appear the same.so let the manx provide some.why would anybody offer ryan a ride? because hes earnt it thats why.perhaps its the modern instant celebrity that gives people a false idea of themselves.couldnt somebody get the chinese to make some plastic reps for sale it could be a help to some...i await the flack..

I'm not certain where they are made and I've never touched one but looked at closely and you'll see that nowdays reps are plastic.

I don't care if they are made of recycled bin liners I still want one and it won't ever be for sale

cargo thats sad!the reason we ever wanted one in the TT was nortons and all the accessory people gave money for one.about £25 if i remember.dont know what you would make of me i only look at them about once a year when i dust the shelf.in the old days they were presented by real people douglas bader,(remember them almost trotting after him to keep up)..lord brabazon.pilots licence no 1.hope you get it cargo,,if u lived nearer you could touch mine !!!!!

Thanks Ancient..! and Carole..!! I am sitting on pins and needles here.... half way around the world, just waiting for next Thursday when I fly out...

By the way, none of this trip would be possible without the encouragement and help from good friends.. My pal Mike that painted the fairing within hours of shipping the bike.. for free..! And the guy the did the head work that I have not yet paid for.. etc... all made it possible... oh yes and to another Mike that is picking me up at the airport and driving me to Liverpool to take the ferry... I am sure most of you have people behind the scenes that make it happen too...

See everyone in less than 7 days....

Cheers..!!

Ron

David, I think if you put every rider on identical bikes Alan Oversby would win! , but your point is basically correct.

I think the favouites this year are Oversby, look at what he did to palmer at the Pre-TT and Bill Swallow the track is much faster than it was in 2003 and his bike is faster than it was in 2003. Neither of these riders will have to make a pit stop and that is a massive advantage to have over the patons. Also Roy Richardson will be right up there on the Bullock Honda. Obviously the Patons will be in contention, and hopefully Paul Coward and Rich Hawkins will be close on Dave Nourish's bikes!

Will Loder Wrote:I think the favouites this year are Oversby

Only possible drawback, Will, is that Alan's a bit hard on his motors . . . . .

larryd Wrote:

Will Loder Wrote:I think the favouites this year are Oversby

Only possible drawback, Will, is that Alan's a bit hard on his motors . . . . .

Oh, we definitely see Alan Oversby as a very serious threat - If his motor holds together! He's been going well at CRMC this year - although I did come across him in a fairly nasty crash just after the start of a Donnington national race. He was fine though. I'm not saying there would not have been some switching around - just that the top ten would have been the same (In MY opinion.)

This will be an interesting race this year - as it should be.

P.S. Oh and as this thread was ORIGINALLY about the MV - Gary Johnson will be interesting - if the bike makes it to the race. He starts alongside my dad... Get your earplugs ready...

David

Hope they are still together at Gorse Lea the noise will be wonderful.

Early arrivers are in the paddock NOW

Pat Wynn will be there tomorrow lunchtime I'll be there late evening.

Not sure if Bob Farrington has arrived yet............. he probably didn't leave after last year

In response to comments made by Tomcat earlier in this thread, my opinions on the subject would be broadly similar to his own. Being old enough to recall watching Ago racing on the MV Agusta and even now able to remember the wonderful sound of it on full noise as he dropped from the Creg down to Brandish, I look forward to seeing and hearing it once again. However I have reservations about the continuing practice of allowing top TT stars into the Manx Grand Prix, and making it very difficult for many riders to win a replica owing to the fast pace being created at the front. I do get annoyed at this phrase "raising the profile" of the Manx. The Manx doesn't need its profile raised. Too many people seem to want to make the Manx Grand Prix more similar to the TT. As Tomcat says, the TT and the MGP are two totally different meetings in very many respects and long may that remain the case; even lots of the fans that come for the Manx every year would have no great desire to come to the TT. As to the claim that the Manx needs to bring in more spectators, I would suggest that as a result of entries dropping every year (partly due to the situation in the Classic races as mentioned above and partly because of the TT course licence issue, which I said at the time it was introduced would have a major effect on the numbers of entries in the future) then the meeting may unfortunately continue to attract less rather than more spectators.
In my opinion any rider who has finished in the top three in a TT race in the previous five years should not be allowed to enter the Manx Grand Prix for a period of three years. Also I still have very strong feelings that while top TT stars can enjoy themselves on the TT course in both June and August, there are still a certain number of former TT regulars who were not accepted for the Centenary TT, being deemed to be not competitive enough, but were unable to be accommodated within the MGP either. OK, one or two did re-appear in the TT this year as the organisers needed as many riders as possible to bolster the entry, but quite a few names have gone off radar altogether. I won't mention any names as it's not my place to do that, but you only have to look at the entry list in the TT programmes of four or five years ago. I would much prefer to see such riders allowed back into the Manx automatically if they weren't accepted for the TT. I applaud the moves by the MMCC to allow former riders back into the smaller classes under certain circumstances, although sadly this doesn't appear to have worked to the extent it was anticipated, I still feel that more could and should be done in this area.
On the subject of the decline in entries, I feel that the TT course licence demands are very much to blame for this, and I also posted this opinion on this forum when the idea was first introduced and continue to stand by what I said. In fact I KNOW that this is the case because I have spoken to several people, former MGP riders on the subject. I feel that requiring TT riders to compete in six meetings is fair game and anyone taking part in the TT would easily achieve this as most are racing most weekends in other road races or high profile short circuit meetings. But, surely, three meetings a year should be more than adequate for anyone intending to take part in the Manx? Yes, I know that the MGP runs on the same course as the TT and the risks and dangers are just the same, but the higher speeds necessary to qualify are not nearly so stringent at the Manx. The Manx Grand Prix is an amateur event at the end of the day, and the riders, for the most part are enthusiastic amateurs as compared to the career-focussed TT competitors. Many MGP riders are taking up to three weeks off work and paying to be on the Island for a similar time span in order to do the Manx and to keep the bikes running for all practice and, possibly, two races. They may not be able to afford to do six other meetings as well, but they almost certainly would be doing two or three other meetings in addition to the Manx every year anyway, in order to dial themselves and their machines in to the challenge ahead of them in August. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest to see reduced entries for the Classic races, I predicted the same long ago.
It must be stated that the TT course licence issue is, of course, nothing to do with the MMCC and everything to do with the ACU. Whether or not individual members agree or disagree with the merits of it, or otherwise, they are obliged to impose it. Only the ACU can sanction changes to the licence requirements, and I wouldn't hold my breath.
There is to be an important meeting next week when the Chairman of the MMCC will announce the plans for the MGP format for 2009. As Cargo says, the MMCC are very much committed to securing the future of the Manx Grand Prix and are actively taking on board many, many opinions from people to help find the right way forward for the event we all love so much. I look forward with anticipation to the announcement, and no doubt there will be much discussion on this board regarding the outcome.
I realise I have gone slightly off-topic as the original thread was about whether or not to allow the MV and Paton into the Senior Classic, but I think that much of it is relative in many ways.

I just want to know, is the biggest complaint the TT rider's on the bikes, the eligibility of the bikes themselves or the "factory team" nature of people such as Paton that annoys people the most?

Professional riders and Factory teams are both outside the original/traditional values of the manx. However history is littered with examples of factory supported riders from companies such as matchless and greeves competing at and winning the manx in the actual classic period.

Secondly as David stated earlier there is no comparible class at the TT for classic bikes, and therefore the Manx Classic race is the premier road racing event for classic bikes. Although there is no money available for the competitors at the manx, like it or not classic bike racing is big business, look at the cost of a new manx, g50, paton, davies honda............therefore it makes sense that the manufacturers would want to showcase their products at the highest level. I think we can all see the logic in this?

So having decided that you want to showcase your product at the manx grand prix you need to secure the services of a rider capable of winning. Bill Swallow rides for Dick Linton, Alan Oversby rides for Ted Woof, Bob Heath has retired Glen English has stopped doing the manx, as has Milky Quayle, Bruno Leroy, Bill Horsman, Derek Whalley, Graham Rhodes........In fact if you look at the list of the fastest classic riders a lot have retired or in several cases are no longer with us. I do accept that riders such as Alan Brew, Wattie Brown, Rich Hawkins and Paul Coward are all very capable however they also have their own sponsors or enjoy riding their own bikes (my Dad turned down several competitive 350 rides because we loved the thrill of taking people on with the Greeves). There are very few young classic riders coming to the Manx, Chris Swallow is a good prospect, Oli Linsdell is too (though he is now a TT rider :S), I intend to do it one day, so do several other young guys I race classic bikes with, but the most logical step is to look to riders outside of the classic races who are capable of winning at the manx, i.e. TT riders, I personally don't think they should get paid to race at the manx but the people running them stand to gain a lot from a strong performance so inevitably money has started changing hands.

If Ryan Farquar bought a Paton and a 350 Honda with his own money would people still object to him being there?

On the subject of the TT course license I totally agree with Barry. I also think a sensible change would be to consider the merits of the events competed in........ it seems ridiculous to me that racing in 5 seperate classes on 5 different bikes at a meeting like the Pre-TT classic is only worth the same as finishing last in a heat at Tonfanau in february?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Will

Re the reference to Mr. Earnshaw in an earlier post; raed this on the IOM Today website:

"CHIEF Ministe Tony Brown has announced a cabinet reshuffle.
Martyn Quayle MHK (Middle) moves from Home Affairs to Tourism and Leisure, replacing Adrian Earnshaw (Onchan) who takes over at Home Affairs.
The changes took affect from 2pm on Monday."

(Their spelling mistake not mine)

Good luck to all the MGP riders

I want to make something absolutely clear to you.............

Much as I detest the requirement to hold a TT course licence it does NOT and never has been intended as a measure of ones ability to race.....ones ability to race is measured by ones holding of a national licence.

The TT course licence serves one function and one fuction alone.........................it proves that the holder is currently and actively taking part in race metings

NOTHING MORE

Cargo, If that post is aimed at me then I totally understand what the TT course licence is intended to prove. And to be honest I think it is sensible to take in a reasonable number of events to stay sharp for the Island.

However what constiutes "activeley taking part"?? turning up competing in one heat without trying, packing up and going home is not "actively taking part" in my opinion. Whilst competing in a meeting comprising 5 events which you have to qualify for, plus 2 days of practice is definately "Actively taking part". Therefore in my opinion one should be given more merit than the other........Just my opinion.

A rider I know was told that he could not count a result gained in the Mallory Park plum pudding meeting towards his TT course licence as the ACU see this as a "Fun Event". Despite the fact that you can count it towards moving from novice to clubman and clubman to national......................Explain that one to me?