Proposed changes to the MGP programme
scruffy Offline
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#21
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
What exactly are the proposed changes intended to do?
Encourage more newcomers and or give the manx a face lift?
We have a fantastic meeting (infact the best) and my post is not intended to negative in anyway.

Where else can you see 250/350/500 classic, 125/250/350/400/SV's/600fours&675triples/750fours&1000twins etc

We've lost countless entries in the past few years with the introduction of the acu tt course licence and 6 race rule. To get more newcomers and fill the race grids, we need to promote what we already have.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2008, 10:35 AM by scruffy.)
10-09-2008, 10:34 AM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#22
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
scruffy Wrote:What exactly are the proposed changes intended to do?
Encourage more newcomers and or give the manx a face lift?
We have a fantastic meeting (infact the best) and my post is not intended to negative in anyway.

Where else can you see 250/350/500 classic, 125/250/350/400/SV's/600fours&675triples/750fours&1000twins etc

We've lost countless entries in the past few years with the introduction of the acu tt course licence and 6 race rule. To get more newcomers and fill the race grids, we need to promote what we already have.

Well said Scruffy
10-09-2008, 11:36 AM
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thewitch
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#23
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
Apparently about 2000 more people came to see the Manx via the boat this year....
10-09-2008, 11:38 AM
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andy kirk Offline
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#24
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
just a question here what are the possibilites of road closing/racing on a sunday ??
10-09-2008, 01:44 PM
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boakesey Away
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#25
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
andy kirk Wrote:just a question here what are the possibilites of road closing/racing on a sunday ??

.... somewhere between zero and nil, I suspect..!
....scone out to take photos!
10-09-2008, 05:36 PM
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larryd Offline
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#26
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
boakesey Wrote:
andy kirk Wrote:just a question here what are the possibilites of road closing/racing on a sunday ??

.... somewhere between zero and nil, I suspect..!

There certainly used to be a provision for Sundays, but only in cases of force majeure.

Is this not still the situation?
10-09-2008, 06:04 PM
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Tomcat Offline
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#27
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
scruffy Wrote:We've lost countless entries in the past few years with the introduction of the acu tt course licence and 6 race rule. To get more newcomers and fill the race grids, we need to promote what we already have.

You've said it yourself, one of the reasons why entries are down. To which I would add rising costs, less practice and (in recent years) the way the organisers have dealt with poor weather (not blaming them this year by the way as I think they did a good job with appalling weather).

What you're talking about is marketing the Manx, so let's consider a few marketing basics. Namely the 4 "P"s.

Product. Yes in many ways it is excellent, and of course the circuit is unique. But the organisation, the way riders are treated, the amount of riding you can do and the classes available should be considered so as many people as possible are eligible to enter, and FEEL WANTED.

Place. Probably about the one thing you can't change, just as well as that's its strongest selling point. Billown... NO.

Price. Riders pay their own entry fees and get no assistance other than a small discount off already-extortionate ferry costs. There is no prize money, no start money and even the Marshals, the heroes in orange, have to pay their way to stand in the mist for 2 weeks. And as you say the ACU slapped an extra burden on the riders in their ill-judged course licence, requiring competent and experienced "holiday racers" to enter extra short circuit races costing several hundred pounds, pay for a medical and contribute £25 to the ACU's coffers. The Island makes a lot of money from the races, it needs to wake up and realise that riders and marshals are increasingly unwilling to shoulder that burden on their own especially with riding time being cut back.

Promotion. When people say "go out and sell the races" this is often all they are thinking of. Stick a few ads in mags, get a write-up in the ACU free paper, wait for the entries to come rolling in. I don't think that follows any more, no more than Skoda could sell their old rattletraps today instead of the sleek new VW clones they make. Selling alone is not enough, the product and its attributes need to be what people want to buy, and I think at the moment the message we are getting from the falling entry numbers is that they aren't.

As such reviewing the class structure and the racing timetable is a worthwhile (and overdue) exercise, but just the first step on a long road to recovery. I hope those responsible have the bravery and forward thinking to provide what the riders want (as opposed to what the ACU or the local pressure groups want) or they are simply re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
10-09-2008, 08:50 PM
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Martin Silver Bullet Offline
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#28
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
Just a spectator but here's my view:

1) Keep the Newcomers Class separate for rider safety . Perhaps Steam Packet could offer an incentive to encourage more entries without offending experienced riders.

2) No to the Senior Classic on Friday afternoon for good reasons already stated.

3) Would prefer Sidecars but understand safety concerns.

4) Would like to see Naked Classics (Nortons, AJS, Bridget Bardot) but perhaps as a separate class rather than a separate race.

As the poet John Lydgate said:

'You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.'

Thanks to all the riders, organisers, marshals and everyone else involved in the MGP for all your hard work. Must be the Greatest Show on Earth!

Martin
11-09-2008, 12:17 PM
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Rich Offline
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#29
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
Thought this thread was so good I'd put my ideas in.
The Manx is only missing 2 fairly big solo classes and thats the big classics and the big modern stuff. If you go to any club meeting then the 2 main classes are the F600 and the Open Powerbike. The Manx has 600s but what other bikes can you use in the Senior? Big V twins and 750s? Hardly anybody races these anywhere else. There really is only one 750 available now in the GSXR and very few 1000 twins as new Ducatis are 1098. I know many are going to mention the safety issues due to the speed of big modern bikes but you can get into plenty of trouble on smaller bikes too.
The next thing to attract riders is to address the paddock facilities. Seeing bikes pushed to scrutineering with cling film on the wheels isn't sending out the right message. How many riders from this year will go home remembering not the awesome racing spectacle that it is but the Glastonbury like conditions?
Last thing the riders need help with is the cost. I think the entry is OK and represents good value for money for the amount of riding done but the ferry is extortionate. I paid close to £600 for my van and caravan this year. In 3 years of riding at the North West 200 it never cost me a penny!
Don't worry about trying to attract more visitors with discounts etc. As the film "Field of Dreams" said, if you build it they will come. Build a Manx GP with big classics and modern production bikes and it'll be very popular indeed.
12-09-2008, 03:05 PM
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The Bag Offline
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#30
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
Hi Rich, as an Ambassador for the MGP I was asked by someone in this thread to propose allowing the 1000cc bikes into the MGP but this idea was not received well and was kicked out very quickly by both committee members AND experienced riders alike.
Its good to see comments and suggestions on here as I can forward them to the MMCC, who it has to be said are trying very hard to accomodate riders, their interests and well being these days. The meeting held at the start of the MGP was a clear sign of how they have changed their attitude and approach to riders.
It was also very clear they have their arms tied in many cases by political red tape from both the DTL and Local Councils.
Cheers
Russ
Meanwhile back on planet earth..........
12-09-2008, 05:00 PM
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Rich Offline
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#31
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
Thanks for the reply Russ.
Do you know why they dismissed the idea? As someone has already said on this forum, we aren't trying to attract those that are already doing it (committee/experienced riders) but trying to attract more riders. By excluding the big modern bikes you exclude a massive portion of racers.
I would always be cautious with the views of others in case there are alternate agendas, and I really hope I'm not speaking out of order here, such as those who own 750s being worried that their bikes will be obsolete. There could be awards for the 750 class within the 1000 class as the TT has done previously.
The superstock class is huge everywhere. People look at the price of running 600 supersport and fall of their chairs. Then they look at superstock and go that way instead. When we look for riders we need to offer the class of bike they own. Not expect them to go and buy a machine just for the Manx.
It all comes to cost again. Over the last few years I've seen a few riders with tuned 600s go through 2 or 3 motors during the fortnight. At over £2000 a go thats a huge bill to meet and potential riders will consider this. Personally, this year I opted to ride a totally standard 600. I knew I wouldn't win it (I'm not good enough anyway) but knew all I'd need to do is change the oil and check it over. Problem is that this won't appeal to others. Thanks again.
12-09-2008, 11:15 PM
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andy kirk Offline
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#32
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
The Bag Wrote:Hi Rich, as an Ambassador for the MGP I was asked by someone in this thread to propose allowing the 1000cc bikes into the MGP but this idea was not received well and was kicked out very quickly by both committee members AND experienced riders alike.
Its good to see comments and suggestions on here as I can forward them to the MMCC, who it has to be said are trying very hard to accomodate riders, their interests and well being these days. The meeting held at the start of the MGP was a clear sign of how they have changed their attitude and approach to riders.
It was also very clear they have their arms tied in many cases by political red tape from both the DTL and Local Councils.
Cheers
Russ

Rich Wrote:Thanks for the reply Russ.
Do you know why they dismissed the idea? As someone has already said on this forum, we aren't trying to attract those that are already doing it (committee/experienced riders) but trying to attract more riders. By excluding the big modern bikes you exclude a massive portion of racers.
I would always be cautious with the views of others in case there are alternate agendas, and I really hope I'm not speaking out of order here, such as those who own 750s being worried that their bikes will be obsolete. There could be awards for the 750 class within the 1000 class as the TT has done previously.
The superstock class is huge everywhere. People look at the price of running 600 supersport and fall of their chairs. Then they look at superstock and go that way instead. When we look for riders we need to offer the class of bike they own. Not expect them to go and buy a machine just for the Manx.
It all comes to cost again. Over the last few years I've seen a few riders with tuned 600s go through 2 or 3 motors during the fortnight. At over £2000 a go thats a huge bill to meet and potential riders will consider this. Personally, this year I opted to ride a totally standard 600. I knew I wouldn't win it (I'm not good enough anyway) but knew all I'd need to do is change the oil and check it over. Problem is that this won't appeal to others. Thanks again.

hi russ Yahoo

rich nail hit on the head Bonk thats what i have been saying m8 why should we have to source then buy a bike just for the manx it makes no sense for any rider coming to do the manx especially newcomers.

rich is right in what he is saying look at where the mgp riders ride the rest of the year on the most part they are riding in the u.k on 1000s or 600,s (not talking about the classics here as i feel that is a very special part of the manx & needs very little tweeking in my opinion)

if i have this right the mmcc has to bring tourists in to get the funding to run the manx from the goverment. to get the funding the mgp has to attract riders to put the show on on the right bikes which in turn brings the tourists.

basicly there is very little they (mmcc) can do about practise. the last 2 years on a 600 only 8 laps is what we are getting (weather has been a massive problem but thats the manx for you)

i do feel the race programe needs sorting out we need to get racing as early as possible why wait after practise week lets get going racing on monday,tuesday,wenesday, that leaves thursday friday saturday if the weather is unkind(hence my question about sunday racing if we could why not ??)

it was not uncommon this year for teams/riders to be on the island for 3 weeks far to long. i,am lucky self employed but folks asking for three weeks off work does not go down well with boss,s (had to give myself a right telling off smiliesmilie)

forrgotten era yes i,am in favour BUT do not limit the cc unlimited and we may just get all sorts of excotica poking out of sheds from all over which will be a major attraction to the tourists which we all need to keep the manx alive and well.

long live the mgp.

p.s thank you BARRY WOOD lap 2 110.378 YahooYahoo
13-09-2008, 09:48 AM
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scruffy Offline
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#33
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
"[quote=Rich]
Thanks for the reply Russ.
Do you know why they dismissed the idea? As someone has already said on this forum, we aren't trying to attract those that are already doing it (committee/experienced riders) but trying to attract more riders. By excluding the big modern bikes you exclude a massive portion of racers."

Like any good business you have to maintain the customer base you already have and build on that. So i think it's vital not only to attract new riders but to make it attractive to current ones to keep coming back. You only have to look back a few years to see how many experienced and committed riders have stopped coming with the licence changes.

Add to that as others have mentioned before spiralling costs (boat fare/entries/insurance/fuel & running costs/accommodation) time off work, all that on top of the current climate we live in (not to mention the weather!). And when i've been to the meetings i have to do to qualify for the ACU TT course licence, the entries are'nt exactly oversubscribed there either, probably for the reasons mentioned above?

Just a thought?
(This post was last modified: 14-09-2008, 11:11 AM by scruffy.)
14-09-2008, 11:10 AM
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Rich Offline
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#34
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
I agree with you there Scruffy. We should still be looking after the riders we have. Hence my initial comments on the poor paddock facilities. Most riders stay in the paddock with partners and kids, so being knee deep in mud isn't going to impress the Mrs when it comes to booking next year. They all keep thinking that for this money they could have a good holiday elsewhere-with guarenteed sun too! The charging for some of the washers/dryers just compounded the misery.
As for the TT Course Licence. Well its been said before-its nonsense and achieves nothing but more money for the ACU. Its just another hoop we all have to jump through and another reason why some people won't enter next year.
I've been wondering why the Manx doesn't attract much sponsorship. I know its not the TT in terms of its profile but feel its probably just not sold like the TT is. It could even be given as freebee for a year to the TT sponsors just to see if it collars any interest eg The PokerStars Senior Manx or whatever. Of course you have to make sure the event gets filmed again though.
15-09-2008, 11:26 PM
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Tomcat Offline
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#35
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
Just a couple of thoughts on points raised by Rich and Andy (and good for them for contributing!). I can see the attraction to riders of including something along the lines of a superstock race. I know the stock or control classes are very popular now around the clubs (3 full grids of Minitwits anyone?) however I'm reluctant to recommend yet another race full of production based 4-cylinder bikes all looking and sounding alike. Despite the undoubted benefits to riders we must remember the need to provide a spectacle to the spectators, and I'm not convinced yet more proddy-based races does that. Remember there have been criticisms of the TT programme for precisely this reason.

Secondly the subject of 'Forgotten Era'/'Post Classic' or similar events (a subject close to my heart I admit!). I know this is also a thriving class on the mainland and remain convinced that it would provide both rider and spectator interest. I wouldn't be too worried about limiting it. After all we have already got the case in the Senior Classic where entrants are allowed to bring in bikes costing tens (or even in one case reputedly hundreds) of thousands with professional TT riders on them, so why limit Post Classics? Perhaps a better idea would be to run classes within the event so that both the rocketships like TZ750s or Moriwakis, and more modest Commandos or TZ350s all had a chance of a result. After all, it is a time trial not a straight race. Wink
(This post was last modified: 16-09-2008, 09:23 PM by Tomcat.)
16-09-2008, 09:22 PM
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sticky Offline
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#36
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
As an affirmation of the fact that another grid full of Japanses sports bikes is not necessarily the way forward, the following is an excerpt from a post by a guy who goes by the moniker of Gixer 1 on iomtt.com. It was on a picture thread of mine and I hope he doesn't mind me copying it here:

"...after 10 years of going to the TT, this was my first visit to the manx, and to be honest, if it werent for Stu going, i doubt i would of gone! but it wont be my last visit, and i agree with you 100%, it shouldnt be turned into a TT lite, without the classics it wouldnt be the manx! i doubt even Stu would of got me to go just to see more 4 stroke japs! i only wanted to experience the sound and sight of the classic beasts roaring past, it was brill, sounded like a squadron of lancasters as they neared ballaugh bridge! awesome, long may it continue."

'nuff said.
16-09-2008, 10:05 PM
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shipleymanx Offline
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#37
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
Agree with Andy and Rich, but from a classic slant on things, the six meeting rule is the killer. We have to decide when to build our engines for the manx. The six meeting rule now means that you have to run the bikes when you should be getting them ready for the manx. So we all need alot more spares, cost again. Also as the figures for spectators, for the manx, have risen yet again surely now is the time that competitors should get some proper assistance with the grossly over priced ferry fares. With out us there is no show
17-09-2008, 01:08 PM
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Rich Offline
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#38
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
sticky Wrote:As an affirmation of the fact that another grid full of Japanses sports bikes is not necessarily the way forward, the following is an excerpt from a post by a guy who goes by the moniker of Gixer 1 on iomtt.com. It was on a picture thread of mine and I hope he doesn't mind me copying it here:

"...after 10 years of going to the TT, this was my first visit to the manx, and to be honest, if it werent for Stu going, i doubt i would of gone! but it wont be my last visit, and i agree with you 100%, it shouldnt be turned into a TT lite, without the classics it wouldnt be the manx! i doubt even Stu would of got me to go just to see more 4 stroke japs! i only wanted to experience the sound and sight of the classic beasts roaring past, it was brill, sounded like a squadron of lancasters as they neared ballaugh bridge! awesome, long may it continue."

'nuff said.

I don't want to see off the classics. Definately not. It makes the Manx special and is a superb spectacle. I'm thinking more of big proddy bikes in the senior, which is already full of jap fours, to boost entries from people who have that bike already.
Then if the newcomers race is amalgamated into each respective class, it can be replaced by a big classic/forgotten era race.
As I said before, the spectators will come to see the event if its good enough and it is already very good. We just need to make sure we don't go the TT route of running a class then dropping it the year after.
Regarding the TT Course licence farce. The event is already National status so why is this required? If it were a clubman event I could understand the need for proof of ability but the TTCL doen't even do that. It just proves that you turned up 6 times. Then there's the other aspect of machine prep that Shipleymanx mentioned.
17-09-2008, 01:43 PM
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cargo
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#39
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
There are problems to consider if we are to think about allowing 1000cc superstock type bikes into the Senior Manx GP.

First off the safety lobby will have something to say even if the bikes are not full on Superbikes the headline will be 1000cc superbikes.............note the small s.

And then there is for me the more serious problem of policing it.
Superstock rules are very complex and a lot of time and money would have to be spent checking bikes to make sure they complied with what ever version of Superstock rules are to be applied. It is frankly a logistical nightmare....................

I'm not saying it can't be done but what I am saying is that I'm not prepared to pay for all this checking and measuring of engines the current rules are easy to enforce..........Superstock rules are most definatly NOT
17-09-2008, 02:39 PM
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sticky Offline
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#40
RE: Proposed changes to the MGP programme
In fairness, the Junior and Senior still have fairly healthy entries, so I'm not sure anything needs to change there. The other classes I'm quite sure are being affected by the TT course licence, which is a farce and it's high time the MMCC grew a pair and stood up to the ACU over it.
17-09-2008, 03:00 PM
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